Dear Paul says a lot of things, but we know he wasn't there when it happened, so don't use him as a witness.
I see. So throw everything Paul wrote out that he didn't witness personally, even though Christ gave him EVERYTHING personally, by Paul's eyewitness. And also, we need to immediately throw out two Gospels, I think by your count, because they were not eyewitness accounts either. Hmmmm. I think this topic is getting to "that" certain stage. :)
Where was Mark when all this happened? Was he with Pilate? Or maybe with Peter who was neither by the Cross nor next to Pilate? You call this hearsay evidence? LOL!
So once again, throw it out if it isn't eyewitness, but somehow follow anything that claims to be eyewitness. But then eyewitness only counts in the Gospels. All other eyewitness testimony is to be thrown out because it's not in the Gospels. Am I up to speed?
Well, Christians also had an agenda and an image to defend. And there is no reason whatsoever to claim that every conspiracy must be discovered.
Yes, at the time those powerful, dedicated, devoted warriors for Christ were fully organized and plotting for a way to cover all this fraud about Jesus' death all up. There you go! :)
FK: Too many people saw Him resurrected with their own eyes and lived MANY years to testify about it, as Paul tells us.
The Gospels do not corroborate this. That is something coming from Paul who wasn't there and who was talking to Greeks who knew exactly nothing about the Jews or their religion, laws and customs, or what happened. Most of the people who preached Christ crucified never saw Christ crucified. They believed the stories they heard from others that He was crucified and that he rose on the third day.
So if Paul said it, and it's not in one of two Gospels (eyewitnesses) then we KNOW it's false. OK.
No, that's your interpretation. The sentence clearly says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who do not believe will be lost. Why would non-believers be baptized?
Hundreds if not thousands of non-believing Orthodox are baptized every single Sunday, as infants. That does not save. If they become true believers later on, THEN they are saved, regardless of the baptism. The verse is consistent with that.
FK: Belief is salvation, baptism is an obedience to God.
That's why the Church cries out for all those outside. They have convinced themselves that baptism is "obedience" to God and has no other meaning. Baptism is for the remission of sins and remission of sins necessary for salvation. You can believe all you want, without remission of sins you cannot be with God because sin is the unbridgable divide that separates us from Him.
Why can't an unbaptized adult convert just confess his sins to a priest and be OK? What sins does a water baptism cover that a confession and absolution cannot?
FK: Acts 1:5 : For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
What does that mean? Baptiso in Greek means to dunk. How does one "dunk" with the Holy Spirit?
It means to be fully enveloped by the Holy Spirit, as in a water immersion. THAT is the baptism that is needed for salvation. Without the grace that comes at that time, nothing else happens. Man cannot come to God on his own, or with only a little nudge. :) The heart must be changed through baptism of the spirit, i.e. regeneration.
FK: I see. So throw everything Paul wrote out that he didn't witness personally, even though Christ gave him EVERYTHING personally, by Paul's eyewitness
I guess if Paul says it it must be true. Talk about placing your faith in a man!
And also, we need to immediately throw out two Gospels, I think by your count, because they were not eyewitness accounts either. Hmmmm. I think this topic is getting to "that" certain stage. :)
No, Mark and Luke were using eyewitness accounts , and Mark in particular was getting his information from Peter, so it's not the same as with Paul. Mark and Luke give accounts of witnesses, like Josephus does, but Paul is his own witness.
Kosta: Where was Mark when all this happened? Was he with Pilate? Or maybe with Peter who was neither by the Cross nor next to Pilate? You call this hearsay evidence? LOL!
So once again, throw it out if it isn't eyewitness, but somehow follow anything that claims to be eyewitness
We have to assume it is hearsay. How else can we account for the exact quotes of what Pontius Pilate allegedly said? One way is to say "God told Mark (or Luke, etc.)" or we can go by the objective evidence of historical writing habits of the time and conclude that they are made up by the author, as was the practice. The additional problem with the first possibility is that there is no explanation why the accounts given to the authors by God would differ as much as they differ among them.
Clearly the quotes are not exact quotes of what was said, but made up by whoever wrote them. I know this is shocking to you as it was to me, but there is no denying it.
All you have to do is compare the "exact" quotes among the four and you. This can only mean one thing, no less shocking, and that is that so much of what we take for granted even the "red letter" verses were made up by the authors as to what they believed was said. So, why would I believe Paul?
Yeah, we have reached "that" level, FK. Now let's decide if we stop here and buy our heads in the sand or forge on. Your call. :) Again, you are missing the point: it's the message, the lesson that we read in the Gospels, in particular, and the Bible in general where it is Chirst-like, that is our guide, and not objective truth of the story.
FK: Yes, at the time those powerful, dedicated, devoted warriors for Christ were fully organized and plotting for a way to cover all this fraud about Jesus' death all up. There you go! :)
We don't know that for sure. But we don't know a lot of things otherwise assumed or presented as "facts" either.
Kosta: No, that's your interpretation. The sentence clearly says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who do not believe will be lost. Why would non-believers be baptized?
FK: Hundreds if not thousands of non-believing Orthodox are baptized every single Sunday, as infants. That does not save. If they become true believers later on, THEN they are saved, regardless of the baptism. The verse is consistent with that.
You are missing the point. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (the Creed: "I profess one Baptism for the remission of sins."). If there is any sin in us (original or not) it is removed by Baptism. At that point, the soul can ascend to heaven for the departed has no sin, and is no longer separated from God. In the case of children, the Church was never told what happens to the unbaptized, so we baptize them knowing they are free of any sin until they can assume responsibility for their transgressions (age of reason).
Obviously, with adults it is a different story. All believers are baptized ("washed") before they enter the Church clean, hence those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Obviously it is not enough to just believe. But if you reject God, it makes no difference if you are baptized or not because you will not repent.
Would you say that only those who are baptized can repent?
Why can't an unbaptized adult convert just confess his sins to a priest and be OK? What sins does a water baptism cover that a confession and absolution cannot?
Original/ancestral. Not because we are somehow "guilty" of Adam's transgression, but because we inherited the consequence of his transgression (propensity to sin). You could say our "addiction" to sin, concupiscence, etc.
What does that mean? Baptiso in Greek means to dunk. How does one "dunk" with the Holy Spirit?
It means to be fully enveloped by the Holy Spirit, as in a water immersion. THAT is the baptism that is needed for salvation.
God is present everywhere and always, so we are always "immersed" in God. Our Baptism is followed by chrismation, anoint with the holy oil, and sealing the Spirit as they say. The Catholics do it at the age of reason. When the Orthodox mean Baptism, we understand that it is both water and oil/Spirit.
So, our Orthodox and Catholic Baptism is salvific if one believes. But in order to enter the Church, the Body of Christ, we must be cleansed of all sin and our hearts have to be regenerated.
Obviously not all become believers, just as not all adults eventually come to God. That's why Baptism and Faith are two essential requirements for salvation, not just Faith.
Without the grace that comes at that time, nothing else happens.
Agreed. The grace of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was offered to the whole world. He died for everyone's sins, not just the sins of some. His death made it possible for all to come to God, but not everyone will.