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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
Funny how standards change! When it's suitable, we stick to one-liners. When it doesn't then we appeal to the "totality of the scriptures."

No, I always go with the totality of scriptures. Sometimes that encompasses many verses and sometimes it doesn't.

Shall I remind you that we had a little discussion about Enoch (#5296), where I asked where does it say in OT that he died and you quote Heb 11:5.

Not true. I quoted Heb. 11:5 in RESPONSE to this part of your statement:

Kosta: It is only in Luke's Gospel that we see inference that he never "saw" death. This is based on Talmudic myth, not on Christian scriptures, unless the Reformed consider Talmud as scripture as well.

You brought the NT into it, not me. Gen. 5 allows a reasonable inference, and Hebrews confirms it. Totality of scripture.

Well, John 14:28 is also scripture, standalone and is plain and easy to understand, and you don't believe it. Double standards? Pick and choose?

Of course I believe it. Jesus was obviously speaking in the same way that He prayed to the Father. The totality of scripture is clear that the Father and the Son are co-equal Persons of the Holy Trinity. It is when one says that one interpretation of one verse trumps 10 other verses that one gets into trouble.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus is equal to the Father?

Here are a few:

John 10:30 : "I and the Father are one."

John 17:11 : I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17:20-22 : 20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: ...

John 5:17-18 : 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Phil 2:5-11 : 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This last one explains all the verses like John 14:28. While Jesus Himself IS God, He humbled Himself to take human form and save us and teach us how to relate to God.

5,440 posted on 05/09/2008 10:24:38 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

Amen, FK! Keeping ‘em honest.


5,443 posted on 05/09/2008 10:30:11 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
Where does the Bible say that Jesus is equal to the Father? FK: Here are a few...John [...John...and more John...]

And yet no one believed Him, not even the Apostles! Acts 1 tells us they did not consider Him to be equal to the Father but someone who would restore the Kingdom of Israel )Jewish messiah), and He also says the exact timing is known but to the Father.

Obviously this is not being "one." We know for sure that John's Gospel was written after the other Gospels and after all the other books of the NT were written. John's Gospel stresses something no other book of the NT stresses, Jesus' divinity, and even then no one except for John, at the end of the first century, states that Jesus said He and Father were one! No one else bothered to record that! How gullible can one be, FK?

Besides, Jesus leaves no doubt that "being one" is not the same as "equal." You yourself quote John 17:11 where Jesus is quoted as saying "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one."

Are we "one" with Jesus and does that mean we are equal to Jesus? Of course not! being one is not the same as being equal. That much is abundantly clear. But Jesus specifically states on more than on occasion that the Father is greater then all and even greater that He (Jesus).

Phil 2:5-11 : 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God [sic] exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow

This is how the original Greek text reads (my mephases):

Obviously, the punctuation marks are missing and it depends where you place then how you will read it. More importantly, your NIV version erroneously states "Who, being in very nature God" where there is no "nature" [Greek: physis] mentioned in the text. Paul actually says form (morphi) of God. In other words, an appearance of God.

The NIV you use is falsely creating the impression that Paul considered Jesus to be, by nature divine, but this is not what Paul wrote.

This is supported by the fact that Paul also says "therefore God [sic] exalted him to the highest place. If God has to exalt Him then Jesus is not God in Paul's eyes, but–as Paul calls Him—the anointed [ Greek: christos] Jesus.

This is very consistent wiht the early Christian writing, including the Gospels (not counting the end of the century Gospel of John), in that Jesus was considered a Jewish messiah, a human anointed by God who will restore the Kingdom of Israel (what the Jews called, and still do, the "Kingdom of God").

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The word "lord" [Gr: kyrios] is a title given to God, kings and generally people above you in any ranking, whom you serve. What this chapter says is that Gods appointed Jesus to be above all humans and that He is God's faithful and anointed servant that all should respect because He is His special representative.

5,474 posted on 05/09/2008 9:07:55 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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