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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
You are equating what many Jews THOUGHT with what the OT actually SAYS. Yet, at the same time you do not equate what heretics think with what the NT actually SAYS

Not really, FK. Does Jesus not say "the Father is greater than I" [Jn 14:28]? Arians and Gnostics must love that verse. The NT also says that God [sic] raised Christ on at least 15 occasions. Ebionites and Jehova's Witnesses must love those verses because they deny Christ's divinity.

Then why don't you just declare these Jews you are talking about to be heretics instead of using them to discredit God's word in the OT?

The Jews are not Christians. They reject Christ. The OT is what it is: foreshadowing of Christianity. It is not Christianity. Without the OT, you would still have Christianity if all you had were the NT. Without the NT you wold never come to Christianity. The two Testaments are not equivalent, and the NT without the Gospels would be meaningless.

David, Joshua, and others DID have a direct connection to Him and did what Jesus would not have done.

David, Joshua, and others DID have a direct connection to Him and did what Jesus would not have done. But I guess you throw all that out since it's OT

No, FK, it's what the OT says God did, such as kill David's child. Now we have God doing what Jesus would not have done! Obviously, the authors of the OT did not see Christ in their visions; they saw something closer to Zeus or Allah. That connection wasn't completely noise-free.

Therefore, and SPECIFICALLY, on what do you base your faith? And, if appropriate, how would you distinguish it from the proverbial "thin air" (which is what I call "baseless")?

FK, something caused all this to exist. That something had to pre-exist all this. We really have no way of knowing what that "something" is, but some call it "God." Since we cannot prove that it is God, one must simply choose to believe that it is. It's not baseless. But it's a leap no matter which choice you take.

I know perfectly well that I happen to be of the elect, through no merit of my own, because I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I don't mean to make any direct comparison or suggest similitude, but this is the same argument the leader of this new apocalyptic cult recently arrested might have used to "prove" that he is the messiah, which he claims he is. What's even more important, he

5,386 posted on 05/07/2008 7:47:21 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
Does Jesus not say "the Father is greater than I" [Jn 14:28]? Arians and Gnostics must love that verse.

If they love that verse to show an untruth then it just means they are ignoring the totality of scripture. The totality of scripture shows over and over that the Son and the Father are equally God. But even within this verse, the context is that Jesus is referring to His (then) current condition, that of a suffering servant. He is comparing that to His returning to His glory in Heaven, i.e. a greater condition. Jesus said and did plenty of things that we would think of as "un-God like". We have to put them in the context that He was fully God AND fully human.

The OT is what it is: foreshadowing of Christianity. It is not Christianity. Without the OT, you would still have Christianity if all you had were the NT.

False. Without the OT you would have New Testamentism, but NOT Christianity. Jesus certainly cared about the OT and quoted from it often. He also upheld the Law given in the OT. Jesus admonished those who did not know the OT, and so I want to follow Jesus by believing that the OT is important and has relevance to our Christianity today.

Without the NT you would never come to Christianity.

It's true we probably wouldn't come to Christianity as we know it, however, we could have still come to salvation as the OT righteous knew it.

The two Testaments are not equivalent ...

Of course they are not equivalent in content, but they ARE equivalent in truth.

No, FK, it's what the OT says God did, such as kill David's child. Now we have God doing what Jesus would not have done!

That's right and is my whole point. Christ said over and over that He came to do what? His own will? NO, but the will of His Father FOR Him. All of us, including Jesus have different paths in righteousness. The path for Jesus, and ultimately with most of the Apostles, was to die a martyr's death. However, for the vast majority of us that is not our path. That doesn't make us wrong! :)

Obviously, the authors of the OT did not see Christ in their visions; they saw something closer to Zeus or Allah.

Of course they saw Christ in their visions. Christ was all over the OT. You may not recognize it because you have already decided for yourself on what the parameters of Christ (God) are.

5,408 posted on 05/08/2008 7:04:48 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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