That's like saying "I hate sin, but sometimes it comes in handy...I don't like to steal, but I send my kids to steal for me." How virtuous is that? We don't believe in the same God.
Kosta: Was it not the purpose of the reformed God's creation of Adam and Eve that they sin?
FK: No, none on my side have ever said that. Only your side says that
Really? So, for what reason, if not God's desire to fulfill His "plan," did they fall, a ccording to the reformed theology? Were they not predestined to fall for the glory of God as your side says? In other words, the sin of the world was introduced, predestined, created, for the gory of God? God "needed" sin in order to be glorified?
Kosta: Did they have a choice (according to the Reformed theology)?
Yes, but the conditions were such that it was inevitable that they would sin.
The sin was a consequence of their limited freedom; it was their choice to disobey.
God did not "move" them to sin.
No, He didn't. They chose to sin.
He set the conditions. We do not "blame" God for planting the tree, making its fruit pleasing to the eye, and letting the serpent in the Garden. God did all this, knowing ahead of time what would happen.
If God planted the tree in order for Eeve in and for the serpent to desieve her, then God's <>intent was to make sure they sin and He succeeded. This is like me setting up conditions for my child to fail in shcool and then kick him out of the house for failing.
Where is Christ in this? Where is Virtue?
I know for sure that it was the desire of my new heart, and also for sure that it was not the desire of my old heart.
But you make it sound like the heart is not really yours. It's either devil's or God's but not yours.
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." -- Ezekiel 36:26
Claim your heart as your own if you so desire, Kosta. As for me, I thank God every day for His free, merciful, unearned gift of a new heart of flesh with which to love Him and know my salvation is by and through and for Christ alone.
That's like saying "I hate sin, but sometimes it comes in handy...I don't like to steal, but I send my kids to steal for me." How virtuous is that? We don't believe in the same God.
While I agree that we may well believe in different Gods, I disagree that your above is like what I said. The question is whether God ever uses sin to accomplish what He wants. If not, then God's role on earth is nothing more than to minister to believers. Everything else that happens is by chance, random luck.
If God influenced any event or any outcome of almost any activity of any non-believer, then it would involve sin to some degree. Sin is THAT prevalent in this world. So, if you believe that does not happen, then your God is even weaker than I thought. :) That God would basically be leaving His creation to its own devices and He would clean up the mess later, not caring what that mess was.
I just can't get over the fact that you believe that the meaning of the crucifixion is that the Romans USED Jesus to instill fear among the people (with the salvation thing being a lucky byproduct), instead of Jesus USING the Romans to save His elect. But, since it involved sin I guess your rule for God is hands off. It must have been random chance and we got lucky.
Usually, the response is that it wasn't luck because God foresaw it, but that's a non-answer. If you tie God's hands behind His back, then whether He foresees anything or not, it is still just luck and in the control of man.
Kosta: Was it not the purpose of the reformed God's creation of Adam and Eve that they sin?
FK: No, none on my side have ever said that. Only your side says that.
Kosta: Really? So, for what reason, if not God's desire to fulfill His "plan," did they fall, according to the reformed theology?
Well, you switched the subject. The purpose of God creating Adam and Eve was to bring glory unto Himself. He did that by using them to accomplish His plan. Part of that plan involved the Fall. Another part of that plan was to populate the earth, etc. But the Fall was not the PURPOSE for creating them.
God "needed" sin in order to be glorified?
No, but the manner of His glorification is really up to Him. He would know. I don't presume.
If God planted the tree in order for Eve in and for the serpent to deceive her, then God's intent was to make sure they sin and He succeeded. This is like me setting up conditions for my child to fail in school and then kick him out of the house for failing.
Well, if your kid was 28, then that might not be a bad idea. :) The point is that there is no way to discern the wholeness of God's plan for allowing sin into the world. We can't understand all of it, but He obviously DID it, so we can only surmise there was a good, Godly reason for it. There is no arguing that God set the conditions. It was man and woman who did not know the difference between good and evil VERSUS pure evil itself. I can't imagine who wins that contest. :)
Where is Christ in this?
Without the Fall, what need have we of Christ? That's where Christ is in this.
But you make it sound like the heart is not really yours. It's either devil's or God's but not yours.
What have I that does not belong to God? Even I am not my own, I was bought at a price.