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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi
"Murder" is a legal term and very often an incendiary word meant to stir emotions. It always refers to "that which is unlawful", in the genre. Since there is no law which says that God cannot intentionally kill humans, He is not subject to a charge of murder

It's not the law, but the nature of God that prevents Him from murdering children, just as His nature prevents Him from lying, or sinning.

He can do whatever He wants with us within all bounds of morality/I>

God is Virtue, and God doesn't change. So at no time is God a vice. As Virtue, what He does with us is always virtuous.

Well, ONE point is that tests and temptations do NOT determine salvation, grace through faith does

Then the tests are unnecessary, and temptations are tortures.

Another point is what we ultimately take out of the experience

What purpose does that have vis-avis your predetermined salvation? None. You are already certain of your salvation and it makes no difference what you do or don't do.

I can think of many temptations I have succumbed to that now are an anchor of strength for the experience

I agree, but what does that anchor of strength do as for your salvation is concerned? If you are saved, that means God sees you as "just" in His eyes and nothing you do will change that. So, if you are just in God's eyes, why doe sit matter to you if you don't think you are; doesn't God tale precedence?

5,186 posted on 04/27/2008 10:20:34 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi
It's not the law, but the nature of God that prevents Him from murdering children, just as His nature prevents Him from lying, or sinning.

Firstly, what is your basis for saying it is against God's nature to take human life? The Bible is clear and says just the opposite.

Secondly, you assume that the ending of a physical life is always not in the best interest of that person, hence you say "murder" is something God would never do. I totally disagree. If a young person had a terminal illness, and was in great pain, would you say God can't take that life earlier rather than later because it would be against His nature? Come on. :) In addition, you are also artificially restricting the Potter from what He may do with His creation:

Isa 45:9-11 : 9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?' 11 "This is what the Lord says — the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

It sounds like someone around here is giving God orders about what He is allowed to do with the work of His hands. But I won't name names. :)

FK: "He can do whatever He wants with us within all bounds of morality."

God is Virtue, and God doesn't change. So at no time is God a vice. As Virtue, what He does with us is always virtuous.

That's all true, but what authority says it is vice for God to end a physical life? There are rules for US, but we are not the Creator, and God makes that clear for us in scripture. For God and Christians, the time we spend on earth is inconsequential compared to the time we spend in eternity.

Then the tests are unnecessary, and temptations are tortures.

They are necessary to the extent that God wants them. They just don't determine salvation. It's also necessary that we eat food, but that doesn't determine salvation either. God didn't have to build us to need food, He just wanted it that way.

FK: "Another point is what we ultimately take out of the experience [of testing]."

What purpose does that have vis-avis your predetermined salvation? None. You are already certain of your salvation and it makes no difference what you do or don't do.

That's correct for salvation IF we accept that God is in control and will not lose any of His sheep by allowing them to forfeit their salvation through deeds. Reformers hold this view. However, it is not correct for the quality of lives we have while here on earth. God wants the best for all of His children, and has apparently determined that testing is a net gain on our earthly experience.

FK: "I can think of many temptations I have succumbed to that now are an anchor of strength for the experience."

I agree, but what does that anchor of strength do as for your salvation is concerned?

The short answer is nothing, which is probably what you would expect me to say. I usually do give that answer, but here I will also note that another way of looking at it is to say that the anchor of strength will lead to a better lived life (more Christian), and that is perseverance. Perseverance is a component of salvation. I don't really look at it that way, since I see perseverance and salvation as "one thing", but it is valid nonetheless. We don't worry about perseverance in terms of doing "enough" since it is just as (pre-)assured as salvation is.

So, if you are just in God's eyes, why does it matter to you if you don't think you are; doesn't God take precedence?

That's right, it doesn't ultimately matter because God does take precedence. I'm sure there are many many people in Heaven right now who were not sure of salvation during life. I suppose the vast majority of Apostolics in Heaven would be good examples. :) I happen to think, though, that I am a stronger Christian, and thus more useful to God, because I have assurance. I can witness with more confidence than I otherwise would.

5,264 posted on 05/01/2008 4:14:45 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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