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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
works do not produce grace BUT works DO produce faith???

Works can strengthen faith, absolutely. That is the meaning of the Unprofitable Servant parable, Luke 17.

The text in Ephesians says that grace is the gift of God and not a product of works, so the glory of it is not ours. Faith is the instrument by which we receive grace. Works is something we are to "walkk in". Your translation, not surprisingly, obfuscates this passage.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Douay)

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJ)

8. ti gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex ymon theou to doron 9. ouk ex ergon ina me tis kauchesitai...

Note that "of yourselves" (ex ymon) and "of works" (ex ergon) are in the same grammatical case, and both refer to grace, which is controlled by "by" (gar). Your translation made grace and works appear in parallel and controlled by "by", while separating "yourself" and "God" by making these two nouns controlled by different prepositions, contrary to the original grammar.

5,128 posted on 04/25/2008 7:44:55 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
FK: "... works do not produce grace BUT works DO produce faith???"

Works can strengthen faith, absolutely.

Ah, I misunderstood. When you said "produce" I thought you meant "create" or "originate". I agree with your above.

Faith is the instrument by which we receive grace.

Not for salvational purposes it isn't. Without grace first there can be no faith later. Wouldn't the alternative be Pelagian? Plus, look at the words of your quote below. How are we saved? Grace. Yes, but how does God dispense this grace to save us, is it grace creating and going through works? No, it is grace creating and going through faith.

Works is something we are to "walk in". Your translation, not surprisingly, obfuscates this passage.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Douay)

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJ)

8. ti gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex ymon theou to doron 9. ouk ex ergon ina me tis kauchesitai...

Note that "of yourselves" (ex ymon) and "of works" (ex ergon) are in the same grammatical case, and both refer to grace, which is controlled by "by" (gar). Your translation made grace and works appear in parallel and controlled by "by", while separating "yourself" and "God" by making these two nouns controlled by different prepositions, contrary to the original grammar.

I'm not sure I am following. Since the topic is salvation, the "it" is "grace through faith", not just grace. Salvation does NOT happen by grace of ourselves, or faith of ourselves, or works of ourselves. Grace through faith is the gift of God. I don't see why your Douay should have any problem with that.

5,237 posted on 04/30/2008 5:12:00 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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