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To: annalex; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
FK: "... how it is possible for an atheist to "obey" God?"

Without knowing it, of course. When one listens to his conscience, he listens to God.

Well, then we have a fundamental disagreement about what the word "obey" means. By your definition, if you wish for a sunny day tomorrow, and tomorrow it is a sunny day, then God has "obeyed" you. :) Your definition simply matches wish with result, ignoring everything in between. So, all of your favorite sports teams "obey" you when they win, all doctors "obey" you when they make a correct diagnosis anywhere in the world, and even you obey your dog when you pet him spontaneously. I just don't agree with that use of the word. :)

In addition, one cannot listen if he does not have ears to hear. They come only from God and He does not give them to other than the elect. "The conscience" can either be led by God or satan. "The conscience" by NO MEANS always leads to good. I can tell you that before I was a Christian I washed many stupid decisions through my "conscience". It was a joke. My "conscience" today is through the Holy Spirit. Very different. :)

5,120 posted on 04/25/2008 4:53:20 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
Conscience is a good topic. And western Catholics are expert on guilty ones, I'm told.

before I was a Christian I washed many stupid decisions through my "conscience".

Got ya beat, I've made stupid ones after my conversion.

But I don't think it is my conscience that's at fault, more a lack of properly formed conscience. Conscience isn't an on/off, either/or thing. It is more like a seed (or sometimes like a pebble in our shoe). But, if we are following Satan's voice, it's definitely not our conscience, more likely it is pride.

I was taught that the key to proper formation of conscience is love. If conscience is lacking, love is lacking. Perhaps this is what you and I experienced in our stupid decisions that we attributed to "conscience" before we came closer to Christ; the absence of love that comes through us, if we refrain from pride and allow it, love the ultimate source of which is God. As soon as we try to possess it or control it, it is lost; like trying to grab water.

So conscience is from love, not Satan, we know this since even before Shakespeare ("Yet who knows not conscience is born of love?")

And when we are completely lacking in love, or worse filled with hate, or trapped in remorse without forgiveness, we lose our consciousness of the presence of God and cast ourselves out of Paradise - how do we know?: "O Conscience, into what abyss of fears and horrors hast thou driven me, out of which I find no way, from deep to deeper plunged."

It's pure Hell - the absence of love.

5,195 posted on 04/28/2008 2:40:04 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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