[HarleyD]

HD-After all, FK is correct; all men are evil when born

Kosta-Prove it!

All one has to do is look around at the world but that not withstanding the scriptures tells so. Please remember that John states, "If we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar and the truth is not in us." Seems pretty inclusive.

Infants have faith! LOL! Or maybe the Reformed God justmakes a suitable "crop" of infants that are saved,

Ah before you doubt please consider this passage:
1Ki 14:1 At that time Abijah the son of Jeroboam fell sick.
1Ki 14:2 And Jeroboam said to his wife, Arise, I pray thee, and disguise thyself, that thou be not known to be the wife of Jeroboam; and get thee to Shiloh: behold, there [is] Ahijah the prophet, which told me that [I should be] king over this people.
1Ki 14:3 And take with thee ten loaves, and cracknels, and a cruse of honey, and go to him: he shall tell thee what shall become of the child. ...

1Ki 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: [and] when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found [some] good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

One of the child of Jeroboam found favor with the Lord. The others did not.

The Catholic Church, as far as I know, teaches that we are born with the consequences of the original sin (propensity to sin), not with the "guilt."

According to stfassisi's Catechism it states,
"It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”.

I would agree with this catechism, original sin is the inclination to sin. This inclination is evil and is consistent with the scriptures that "No one does what is right; not one". As FK, countless Reformers, and me have stated many times, man seeks to do those things that are contrary to God's will. This IS the Augustinian idea of sin.

The Orthodox do not believe that man is tainted or that man is "inclined" to sin. Instead they believe he can choose to sin or not to sin. This belief runs counter to this Catechism and the western father's teaching on the subject.

[stfassisi]

""I would agree with this catechism, original sin is the inclination to sin. This inclination is evil and is consistent with the scriptures that “No one does what is right; not one”. As FK, countless Reformers, and me have stated many times, man seeks to do those things that are contrary to God's will. This IS the Augustinian idea of sin.""

The NEXT line in the Catechism says this..

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. the first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. the Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546)

Here is a good historical article on this that shows what the Greek and Latin Fathers said.Blessed Augustine made some error's as well

http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7529

I wish you a Blessed evening!

[kosta50]

[Kosta: prove that all men are born evil] All one has to do is look around at the world but that not withstanding the scriptures tells so. Please remember that John states, "If we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar and the truth is not in us." Seems pretty inclusive.

Sin has to be committed. What sins have infants committed?

One of the child of Jeroboam found favor with the Lord. The others did not

LOL, that's Judaism, HD. Where does Christ teach that! We are Christians, right?

And while you are at it, please show where is Chirst in the Kings (of all the books!).

If anything, the NT tells us that Christ considers children perfectly innocent.