So for you freedom means the ability to thwart God's will, and you like freedom? :)
So, Judas and Pontius Pilate, Hitler, John the Baptist and Christ Himself were doing only what was preordained.
You say "only" as if it is a bad thing when what God ordained happens.
Neither you nor I know what is God's "perspective."
God's perspective is that of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God. We can have "some" idea what that means. The Fathers certainly took a stab at it. :)
If I invite you and Mark and Irish and all our Freeper Religion Forum friends to a party and some of you show up, while others don't, whose fault is it if those who didn't show up missed a great party? Am I following the leadership of others? Of course not. I make the invitation. Those who show up win, those who don't lose.
But let's say that you WANTED at least 10 people to show up (you thought the party couldn't be a success unless at least 10 showed), but only eight did. Your will has been thwarted by the people and there's nothing you can do about it. The people determined whether you got what you wanted. That doesn't make you a weak person because, hey, you're only human. :) However, that would certainly make for a very weak God.
If I send out invitations only to some and then force them to show up, are they there because they want to be or because they have to be? I think the qualitative difference is obvious. They are there because they must be not because they want to be. It's forced "love" FK. And some people like it that way...
Let's say you invite me and I hem and haw for a while, but then you, knowing that I find a certain food irresistible, tell me that you are serving that food. I then readily accept your gracious invitation. Did you "force" me? No, you gave me an offer I couldn't refuse. :)
FK: So for you freedom means the ability to thwart God's will, and you like freedom?
You have it wrong. God gave us freedom so we can choose whom we shall serve. He knows our choices but he doesn't make them for us.
Kosta: So, Judas and Pontius Pilate, Hitler, John the Baptist and Christ Himself were doing only what was preordained.
FK: You say "only" as if it is a bad thing when what God ordained happens.
Tell me FK: was Hitler and his evil God's will? Is God the creator of Hitler and his evil? Was Hitler predestined by God to exist and to be evil? Was Hitler simply doing God's will?
Kosta: Neither you nor I know what is God's "perspective."
FK: God's perspective is that of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God. We can have "some" idea what that means. The Fathers certainly took a stab at it.
Having "some" idea is not the same as knowing.
Kosta: If I invite you and Mark and Irish and all our Freeper Religion Forum friends to a party and some of you show up, while others don't, whose fault is it if those who didn't show up missed a great party? Am I following the leadership of others? Of course not. I make the invitation. Those who show up win, those who don't lose.
FK: But let's say that you WANTED at least 10 people to show up (you thought the party couldn't be a success unless at least 10 showed), but only eight did. Your will has been thwarted by the people and there's nothing you can do about it. The people determined whether you got what you wanted. That doesn't make you a weak person because, hey, you're only human. :) However, that would certainly make for a very weak God.
An invitation is not a summons, FK. Those who don't show up do not make me unscussefful; they miss a great opportunity freely given to them.
Kosta: If I send out invitations only to some and then force them to show up, are they there because they want to be or because they have to be? I think the qualitative difference is obvious. They are there because they must be not because they want to be. It's forced "love" FK. And some people like it that way...
FK: Let's say you invite me and I hem and haw for a while, but then you, knowing that I find a certain food irresistible, tell me that you are serving that food. I then readily accept your gracious invitation. Did you "force" me? No, you gave me an offer I couldn't refuse.
FK, an offer you can't refuse is telling "I either shoot you or you jumpt off this building." If you believe this is how the Christian God operates, then we are a lot farther apart then I ever imagined.