FK: I'm afraid you're wrong on almost every count. :) Of course all of those things matter. They absolutely matter to us, therefore they matter to God who loves us
On which account am I wrong? Are you now saying that Abraham, according to the Reformed theology, was not predestined to believe and appreciate his faith?
Are you now saying that our prayers and our faith somehow changes anything that hasn't already been determined by God before we even existed?
It is not an illusion, indeed deception (and we know who the father of those is!) that our prayers and faith make a difference if everything was predestined and we are simply acting out a pre-choregraphed script? We are simply reading the lines of the drama text the Reformed God wrote for us before we existed.
So, where am I wrong an almost every count here?
We KNOW that God gives good gifts and works for the good of those who love Him: Matt 7:7-11 : 7...Rom 8:28
Part of Reformed God's choreography...none of it changes anything.
God also sends his rain on the pious and impious, FK, none of which changes the fact that some are predestined to hell and others to heaven according to the reformed theology.
Prayers do not change GOD, but they certainly DO change things for us. When we pray in accordance with God's will we ALWAYS get the thing we are praying for
If it is in accordance with God's will, then it will happen whether we pray or not because the outcome was already predestined by the Reformed God before the foundation of the world. Our prayer is simply a litmus test if they are in accordance with God's will or not. They don't change the outcome.
We can pray for someone to get well, but if that person doesn't make it, then our prayers were not in accordance with God's will. If we didn't pray, that person would have died anyway because the Reformed God willed it so. So, the prayer changed nothing.
And, if the person does get well then our prayers did nothing either, since it was God's will to begin with that this person should get well, and our prayers changed nothing.
Therefore, in the Reformed religion, prayers do nothing and change nothing. They are either empty rituals, or meaningless show that God predestined us to perform.
On which account am I wrong? Are you now saying that Abraham, according to the Reformed theology, was not predestined to believe and appreciate his faith?
I said in my post: "All those things you listed, a [personal] relationship with God as a believer, our prayers, and our good works, are all gifts from God. We benefit from them." You contended that none of those things matter to us as Reformers. I am saying, "yes" they do. ........ Abraham was predestined to believe, AND, it matters that he believed, prayed, and did good works. And because those things matter, God uses a variety of means to ensure that they happen.
Are you now saying that our prayers and our faith somehow changes anything that hasn't already been determined by God before we even existed?
No, but that doesn't mean they don't matter. If I predestine that I'm going to eat tonight, does it matter if I actually do? Of course. Certain activities are of value and import even if they DON'T thwart the will of God or change His mind. :)
It is not an illusion, indeed deception (and we know who the father of those is!) that our prayers and faith make a difference if everything was predestined and we are simply acting out a pre-choregraphed script? We are simply reading the lines of the drama text the Reformed God wrote for us before we existed.
It might be a deception if God didn't tell us all about His sovereignty and how this works. But, glory be to God, He gave us the scriptures and it's all right there. :) So, no deception.
The difference is made in their happening, not because it changes God's mind. Someone gets sick. People pray. The sick person gets better. Was prayer answered? YES. God ordained the prayer as well as His healing of the sick person. Since God does not ordain that which doesn't matter, the prayers mattered.
We are simply reading the lines of the drama text the Reformed God wrote for us before we existed.
But God doesn't give us the text, so for us it's all improv. :) That's real enough for me.
Part of Reformed God's choreography...none of it changes anything.
So if man doesn't have the power to change God's mind, to say "hey God, you're wrong about this because ...." then you would say that's a bad thing?
We can pray for someone to get well, but if that person doesn't make it, then our prayers were not in accordance with God's will. If we didn't pray, that person would have died anyway because the Reformed God willed it so. So, the prayer changed nothing.
Sure, but our prayers were not in vain either. ........ If humans changed God's mind then we would have power over God. I don't want power over the God I believe in. :)
And, if the person does get well then our prayers did nothing either, since it was God's will to begin with that this person should get well, and our prayers changed nothing.
No, because again the prayers were not in vain. God responded to the prayers within time without having to change His mind. I don't understand the mindset that says that prayers are useless unless they constitute orders to God.