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To: kosta50; blue-duncan; the_conscience; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg
None of the Apostles at that point [Matt. 16:17] treated Christ as God Incarnate; they did not pray to Him; nor did they worship Him.

That's pure speculation, Kosta. We can't know exactly how that worked. From the evidence of the Bible, I can't think of when Jesus commanded the Apostles to treat Him that way while He was with them (before the crucifixion).

Even after the Resurrection, just before His Ascension, not all believed, as Mat 28:16-17 tells us ...

Well, I'm not certain that "doubt" absolutely equals "disbelieved". But in any event, I thought it was generally accepted that solid belief as we understand it, was not fully formed until Pentecost.

In the Jewish mindset of the 1st century Middle East, it was unthinkable that any man, let alone a poor carpenter, could be God, or that it is possible for man to be God. They also could not find any support of this in their scriptures. Jesus does not fit the "profile" of the Jewish messiah. Out of seven, He fulfills only one—being Jewish.

No, Jesus is described all over the OT, so the scripture IS there. Some to many did not see it. We just read this passage in church not two hours ago:

Luke 24:25-27 : 25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

It doesn't get any clearer than this. He called them fools for not seeing what you say isn't there to see. :)

4,601 posted on 03/30/2008 10:51:22 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; the_conscience; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr
From the evidence of the Bible, I can't think of when Jesus commanded the Apostles to treat Him that way while He was with them (before the crucifixion).

He was never treated as God in the Synaptic Gospels; no one prayed to or worshiped him. It is only at the end of Matthew (Ch 28), just before he gives them the Great Commission that we find (verses 16-17)

Clearly here those who doubted were distinguished from those who worshiped him, and this was after the resurrection.

But even here the Greek word proskuneo does not mean worship, as in worshiping God, but rather as veneration (actually kissing of the hand type of veneration), or to do homage. This is applicable to anyone superior to you.

The Greek word for worship which means to serve, as in serving God, is latreuo.

And even when it came to venerating the Risen Christ some (it doesn't say how many) of his closest and staunchest followers were doubtful.

If they thought he is God, they would have prayed to him and worshiped him as God.

Well, I'm not certain that "doubt" absolutely equals "disbelieved".

Legalese, FK, like is isn't always' is...

But in any event, I thought it was generally accepted that solid belief as we understand it, was not fully formed until Pentecost

You are right! That's why the Synaptic Gospels (written after 70 AD) do not treat Christ as God, but concdentrate on his humanity (as a Jewish messiah), and John's Gospel (written at the end of the century, some 30 years later) does!

By then, Christianity clearly evolved into a separate religion (partly because it was rejected by the Rabbis at Jamnia) and was in fact actively doing everything to shed its Jewish roots, character, Sabbath, or mode of worship, while recognizing Jesus as fully divine as well, not just an "image of God" (as +Paul says), but God himself.

No, Jesus is described all over the OT, so the scripture IS there. Some to many did not see it. We just read this passage in church not two hours ago: Luke 24:25-27...27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself

Please provide passages where Moses and others, without any doubt, write about Jesus. Thank you.

4,606 posted on 03/30/2008 12:44:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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