[Forest Keeper]

FK: ***You are forgetting that it is God’s INTENTION to use His elect to reach others of His elect. So, in some cases my action is indeed required because that is what God planned. The cause of my action is wholly God, but it is still necessary for God’s plan to be fulfilled. That is the use of my preaching.***

Curious. Where does the Holy Spirit come in utilizing this methodology? Are you merely mechanically doing things that seem right to you just in case God wills it?

I'm not sure what you're asking. For all the good we do, God wills it. That includes preaching. God is the first cause. It is not that God "agrees" with us when we choose to do good. God made the choice first, and then we carried it out.

The Reformed non elect are going to hellfire and damnation forever. How in the world could they benefit?

You seem to think that tying one's shoes in the morning has salvific implications. :) Of course any benefits to the non-elect, all non-elect including Catholic non-elect, would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.

There is a vast difference between belief and knowledge. I think that it might appear to be a factor in some of the discussions and disagreements that go on here. I believe in God, the Father almighty... I know that the sun rises in the east.

I would say that I know both. In fact, I would be MORE surprised if there was no God than if the sun didn't rise tomorrow.

[HarleyD]

MarkBsnr-Curious. Where does the Holy Spirit come in utilizing this methodology?

FK-For all the good we do, God wills it.

Amen, FK. In fact this "methodology" consists totally of the actions of the Holy Spirit. It is given to Him to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. We are instruments if He chooses to use us but if not we are still commanded to share the good news.

Mark-The Reformed non elect are going to hellfire and damnation forever. How in the world could they benefit?

FK-Of course any benefits to the non-elect... would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.

Everyone benefits from God's grace. By right we should all have been exterminated long ago. Yet God is long suffering. So He causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust and provides air to breathe for those who would curse His name as well as praise it.

It is my strong belief (and I think this is evidence in scripture with the rich man and Lazarus) that there are simply some who would rather face the torment of hell then to live eternity glorifying God. This is the way things were made.

Mark-There is a vast difference between belief and knowledge. ...I believe in God, the Father almighty... I know that the sun rises in the east.

This called to mind the following verses:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

People KNOW there is a God. It is revealed all around them. They simply suppress the truth about God because they do not wish to glorify Him.

[kosta50]

I would be MORE surprised if there was no God than if the sun didn't rise tomorrow

Something created all this, directly or indirectly, FK, and that somehting we call God. Whether that something is really God is not certain. But we believe it is.

We really don't have a concise definition of God. We don't know God. We only "know" Him through the relaity of our world, the seemingly endless universe, whatever the "voices" inside of us told us, and what we are willing to believe.

Chances are we will not discover for sure what made all this in our lifetime, so we wll continue to call it God, and there is no sure way of knowing if we will know about it when we are dead.

As far as the sun not rising tomorrow, there is a very real possibility of that, too, FK.

[MarkBsnr]

***I’m not sure what you’re asking. For all the good we do, God wills it. That includes preaching. God is the first cause. It is not that God “agrees” with us when we choose to do good. God made the choice first, and then we carried it out.***

Micromanagement? Are you saying that God chooses everything that we do? If I get hail damage on my car from the storm today, it’s God’s will? If I decide to go into a nudie bar or get drunk that it’s God’s will? How can I possibly sin if everything that happens is God’s micromanaged ‘plan”?

Back to the old “God is the author of evil” POV? Algore getting the jet set treatment for massively lying to the world is God’s will? The vicious attacks on Mother Teresa are God’s will? Jeffrey Dahmer is God’s will? I still can’t seem to reconcile that with the message of love and salvation that I read from the Gospels.

***Of course any benefits to the non-elect, all non-elect including Catholic non-elect, would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.***

Are you saying that if you read Scripture to a non elect who couldn’t appreciate it anyway that he’d get a better job, or a new car, or a wonderful wife or something like that? Where is this Scrfpturally supported?

***I would say that I know both.***

As kosta and I have repeatedly said: you must separate belief from knowledge because they are two different things.