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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; wmfights
Where do you find this in the scriptures? There is nothing that says they were “ordained” or that they were anything but laity exercising the gifts given to everyone in the church

1 Cor 12:18 reads (my emphasis) "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers..."

The "appointment" is carried out by the laying of the hands, which was done in the Church, as was the case with +Paul and +Barnabas. This appointment is ordination to a specific function (deacon, priest, bishop...), the reception of Holy Orders.

Furthermore, the gifts are not given to everyone. It is written: "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:17-18, the part you acknowledge as having been "added" but dare not call it a forgery)

Forest Keeper himself argued not so long ago that in this case "those who have believed" did not apply to "all" but somehow only to some, otherwise believers could be distinguished by those who to have them (as the actual text suggests), which is not the case!

You, on the other hand, are arguing that these gifts were given to "everyone."

And Ephesians 4:11-12 reads "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ."

"Some," BD, doesn't equal "everyone."

Clearly, not all were elders in the Church. There were those who were appointed (ordained), Clearly and also those, the majoirty (the "sheep") who were not given much, who had no role in the Church.

4,282 posted on 03/18/2008 6:49:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; wmfights

“1 Cor 12:18 reads (my emphasis) “And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...”

Mine reads “But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.”

Eph. 4:10-12 reads, “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”

This is the same giving of gifts mentioned in Eph. 4:8, “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men” and in 1 Cor. 12:7-11, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

These are also mentioned in Romans 12 and the implication is every believer is gifted in some way ,by God for the work of the ministry, but there is no requirement that these gifts are bestowed by the laying on of hands. To the contrary, the evidence is that the laying on of hands was a recognition of the ministry that god had called individuals to and bestowed nothing but that recognition. Paul and Barnabas were set apart by god for the mission and those in the church signaled their recognition of this by the laying on of hands. The signal bestowed no power or authority; God had already given it.

“Some,” BD, doesn’t equal “everyone.”

The Greek word “men” that you translate “some” means “indeed” or “truly”. It does not limit numbers but intensifies the idea that gifts were given to everyone as is said in 1 Cor. 12.

Notice also that the gifts were to perfect the saints (members) to do the work of the ministry, i.e.the “Great Commission”. It was for the members, not the Apostles only, that were to be witnesses.


4,286 posted on 03/18/2008 7:32:20 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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