I would agree with that from a Catholic perspective. But I would disagree with the idea that only true faith brings good works. Therefore good works is evidence only of faith and not proof. The heathen can do good works and the Reformed elect can do evil. Which proves nothing.
Do you mean good works in God's eyes? Truly good works? My position is NOT that the appearance of a good work proves true faith. We can't know that. But we CAN know that the heathen can do NO good works.
True faith is the ONLY thing that bears true fruit, good works, in God's eyes:
Matt 7:17-20 : 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit . 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
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The question still stands: what is essential about good works from a Calvinist perspective other than the fact that is a nice thing to do and is mentioned by Jesus.
It is obedience to God. In my personal book, that is essential. :) I do not obey to earn points toward salvation, I obey because I WANT to with the new heart that God gave me.
What happens if one of the elect simply neglected to do good works?
That can't happen, simply on a definitional level.
Does it have any effect on his salvation (I understand that the Calvinist says no)? If not, then what does it have an effect on?
True believers CAN go through lapses in faith, entailing not doing works. However, it cannot be fatal ultimately because Christ loses NONE of those the Father has given Him. During such times, the person suffers in his personal life on earth. God WILL discipline all those He loves when we need it. I have been there and I'm sure I will be again. I am ashamed of this, but I still focus on the fact that God loves me.
FK: ***But I thought that the Catholic position was that through Apostolic succession any priest had the authority to absolve sin based on John 20:23. I have been told that Heaven accepts the decision of the priest (even one who has wrongly been fooled). That doesn’t match what you are saying.***
You appear to be correct. The Catholic doctrines that I have scrutinized support that. Based upon the passages in Matthew and John, that is the case.
Along with yourself, I like to think that my Catholic teachers are VERY good. :)
FK: ***That is the classic difference between God’s POV and man’s. Men fully experience free will, so it is fully real, for us. On a higher plane, God is in control. ***
Sounds like rationalizing to me. :)
I don't think so. I look at the realities of our children and how we shape them as parents. One classic example is having a small child "help" with something. Even though the actual help was negligible we still thank them and they feel like they have contributed. It's all good, but the realities, the experiences, are truly different. That's all I'm saying. There is a true analogy for this.
Sure we do, and Matt 7:17-20 does not say otherwise. When a heathen does good works he does so because some intuitive knowledge of Christ, howbeit imperfect, has guided him.
***Do you mean good works in God’s eyes? Truly good works? My position is NOT that the appearance of a good work proves true faith. We can’t know that. But we CAN know that the heathen can do NO good works.***
But the Reformed claim that even the non-elect do God’s will and will in some cases help the elect towards their eternal salvation. Actually, I thought that you said something to that effect. Is that not good works in God’s eyes - the assisting of the elect towards recognizing their status and eternal salvation?
***True faith is the ONLY thing that bears true fruit, good works, in God’s eyes:***
But if the Reformed claim that good works is evidence of salvation, how does that provide evidence to us if only God understands whether it’s good works or not.
***It is obedience to God. In my personal book, that is essential. :)***
But it’s not about your personal book, or mine. It’s about God’s.
***I do not obey to earn points toward salvation, I obey because I WANT to with the new heart that God gave me.***
How do you separate your own selfish wants from the want to obey God? You must have some selfish wants since the Reformed do admit that the elect wander into sin. Sin is the pursuit of selfish wants instead of obedience to God. How would you characterize that struggle?
***What happens if one of the elect simply neglected to do good works?
That can’t happen, simply on a definitional level.***
Says who? Whose definition?
***True believers CAN go through lapses in faith, entailing not doing works. However, it cannot be fatal ultimately because Christ loses NONE of those the Father has given Him.***
If you truly believe, how can you go through lapses in faith? Scripture says that none can snatch them out of His hand, not that they cannot walk away - the goats and those who sin boldly.
***Along with yourself, I like to think that my Catholic teachers are VERY good. :)***
Thank you for the compliment. I do, however think more of myself as a dwarf standing on the shoulders of theological giants. Including some folks right here on FR.
***I look at the realities of our children and how we shape them as parents. One classic example is having a small child “help” with something. Even though the actual help was negligible we still thank them and they feel like they have contributed.***
I’m sorry but I really don’t get this analogy.