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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; ...
Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture

That paragraph is highlighted for anyone who thinks the reformation has ended.

By the grace of God, men have been given God's actual word, Jesus Christ, made known to us in the God-breathed Scriptures handed down from believer to believer whose understanding is illuminated by the Holy Spirit, not the magisterium.

Scripture is the church's rule of faith.

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Every Christian led by the Holy Spirit has the ability and privilege to understand Scripture. Likewise, Scripture is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture.

"These (the Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." -- Acts 17:11

No one has the right, not even the church, to go beyond Scripture.

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." -- 1 Corinthians 4:6

God has entrusted His word to all believers.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." -- Jude 1:3

The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church, not the magisterium or the bishop of Rome.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." -- John 16:13-14


"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." -- 1 John 2:27

Scripture is the word of God.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -- 2 Peter 1:20-21


"...the Scripture cannot be broken." -- John 10:35

Tradition is the word of men.

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." -- Mark 7:7-9

Why did God use the written word over the vain imaginings of men? Because we are conceptual beings, above the sentient animals, who are able to think and reason and understand concepts and ideas. Therefore our faith is based, not on trinkets we can hold, or icons we can see, or flesh and blood we can taste, but on the words of God which are given meaning to our new heart and our renewed mind by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we are spiritual beings, not carnal. We understand Christ's sacrifice for us. We know Christ's redemption of us. We believe Christ is God made flesh to redress the sins of our flesh.

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." -- 1 Corinthians 3:17

Christ did not die to chain us again to men and works and bureaucracies and the law. He died to set us free.

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." -- 2 Peter 2:19


"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." -- Galatians 5:1

How are we to know we are free by the atoning death of Christ on the cross?

By reading the words of God which, by the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit, are received into our grateful minds and hearts so that we can really and truly understand our salvation has been accomplished by Jesus Christ alone.

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:14-20


3,888 posted on 03/11/2008 10:50:48 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What a glorious post, dear sister in Christ! Beautiful Scriptures. Thank you!

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

To God be the glory!

3,890 posted on 03/11/2008 11:08:06 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***That paragraph is highlighted for anyone who thinks the reformation has ended.***

It should have never started.

***By the grace of God, men have been given God’s actual word***

Which is what? The Reformers sure didn’t understand a summary of the Gospel; what makes them think that they have God’s actual word? Do you have a sample of them?

***Jesus Christ, made known to us in the God-breathed Scriptures handed down from believer to believer whose understanding is illuminated by the Holy Spirit***

Handed down from believer to believer? The ranks of the heretics are full of the created hand me downs. It is the Church which wrote down, preserved and disseminated Scripture. It is the Church which identified and protected believers from the heretics and the apostate.

Else we’d be surrounded by and possibly subsumed into Gnostics, Arians, Marcionists, Montanists, and all the others who have gone astray from the Faith.

***Scripture is the church’s rule of faith.***

Scripture is a Catholic document - a most important one, definitely, but a Catholic document nonetheless. It shows the truths that God wishes to present to us in Scripture.

***And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ***

Speaking to Jews who knew the OT. The NT wasn’t written yet and this did not pertain to it.

***All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness***

Nothing in here about sola scriptura. Nothing in here about removing pages, chapters or sections of the Bible either.

***That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works***

That darn works again. It keeps cropping up regardless of the Reformation reform of Biblical chapters.

***Every Christian led by the Holy Spirit has the ability and privilege to understand Scripture. Likewise, Scripture is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture.***

Tens of thousands of different denominations demonstrate that this is not so. When Jesus set up His One Church:

Matt 16:
13
8 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
20
15 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.

and

John 21:
15
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.

and so on give us the instruction as to what the Church was here for and what it was to do.

Acts 2:

1
1 When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.
2
And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, 2 and it filled the entire house in which they were.
3
Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, 3 which parted and came to rest on each one of them.

.........

36
Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
37
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

There weren’t crowds of thousands that the Holy Spirit annointed as the leaders of the first Church. There were those gathered in the room together - the Apostles.

Individuals are not granted the same gifts; those who take on ecclesiastic roles are given greater gifts and strengths in order that they might fulfill them better.

***The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church, not the magisterium or the bishop of Rome.***

The Holy Spirit comes to us through Baptism and is the leader of the Church; it guides all individuals including the Magisterium and the Pope and the Patriarchs.

***For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” — Mark 7:7-9***

The Church follows the Tradition of the Apostles, taught to them by Jesus. The traditions and their development are well documented.

***Why did God use the written word over the vain imaginings of men?***

God used the same oral tradition that the Jews had for nearly 400 years before the Church decided to define Scripture in a book.

***Because we are conceptual beings, above the sentient animals, who are able to think and reason and understand concepts and ideas.***

Reason and ideas have led to abominations such as the Westminster Confession, put together by a secular king and ratified through a secular Parliament (actually two Parliaments) in order to secure spiritual power over temporal things. You either have the Church attending to spiritual affairs, led by the Holy Spirit, or you have men attending to spiritual affairs, led by lust for power, greed and corruption.

***Therefore, we are spiritual beings, not carnal.***

Your argument does not follow. In any case, we are carnal beings, complete and abject. It is only by the Grace of God that the Way of Salvation is opened up to us.

***We understand Christ’s sacrifice for us. ***

Do you now?

I sat in a dark movie theater watching the Passion of the Christ and saw the reaction of those around me. The weeping and retching and passing out and the whole gamut of severe emotional reactions showed that these people didn’t understand nearly as well before as they did after watching the movie. And it is still only a movie - can you possibly imagine the real thing? The real Sacrifice that Jesus made for us?

We may understand on a rational or intellectual basis and have some insight as to the real cost that Jesus paid. But we do not understand as glibly as some may think.

***We know Christ’s redemption of us.***

We believe that He redeemed us.

***We believe Christ is God made flesh to redress the sins of our flesh. ***

Now we are speaking the same language and are in full agreement.

***Christ did not die to chain us again to men and works and bureaucracies and the law. He died to set us free. ***

We are not chained. Men are free. Even the Reformed are free.

***John 17:14-20***

Talking to the Apostles again.

***How are we to know we are free by the atoning death of Christ on the cross?

By reading the words of God which, by the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit, are received into our grateful minds and hearts so that we can really and truly understand our salvation has been accomplished by Jesus Christ alone.***

Believe, not understand. We can no more understand God or the things of God than a rotifer can understand super string theory. But we can believe the promise of His Salvation. There is a difference.


3,898 posted on 03/11/2008 1:02:24 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

What IS IT with some folks who can’t believe that God’s word is just that, God’s word, to us his believers? He is speaking to us today through the scriptures. Why can’t people believe that His word is living and true even for today? We don’t need church fathers to tell us what it says, we can read it for ourselves.


3,932 posted on 03/12/2008 9:19:49 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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