As with my example, I would imagine such a thing happens very seldom. However, in the victim's mind he IS damned, even though the truth is otherwise. This potential is one reason I object to the power claimed.
FK: ***Let’s say that your car dies on you and you have it towed to your favorite mechanic, me. I examine the car and then I tell you “I promise I will have it fixed for you by tomorrow”. You come back the next day and I smile and tell you that the repairs went fine. You hop in and turn the key but nothing happens. Then you get out and ask me what’s going on. I smile again and say that I actually didn’t touch your car, but I have assembled all the tools you’ll need to fix it yourself. According to you I fully kept my promise to fix your car.***
Slow day? No, the analogy doesn’t work. Jesus is the WAY, the Truth and the Life. The Way. The Journey. Not the limousine. It is up to us to make that journey - and He makes it possible - it is impossible otherwise.
I don't see where you address my point at all. The Bible says (promises) that those who truly believe on Christ are saved. Yet, Catholicism says "maybe". My analogy compares the promise (scripture) with the reality in Catholicism (something very different).
FK: ***Just for fun, let’s extend the analogy. :) Now, let’s say that the next time I actually do fix your car, just as I promised. You thank me and ask if my work is guaranteed. I say “Absolutely” and then hand you a certificate which says “Eternal Guarantee”. Well, after a while your car breaks down again and you bring it back. You present the “Eternal Guarantee” and expect me to fix it for free. I say “No way. You see, the Eternal Guarantee is only good until the next time your car breaks down. As soon as it breaks down, the Eternal Guarantee expires. Therefore, if you want it fixed you will have to pay full price” (confession/penance). Under Apostolic thought you have no problem with this and think it is perfectly fair. :)***
Eternal salvation is not a car wreck and the Guarantee comes with conditions - the Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start.
Again, I do not see you addressing my point. The car breaking down again is analogous to the next mortal sin. That is, the thing that the guarantee is supposed to guarantee against. My point is that in Catholicism a guarantee is claimed (one is "eternally saved"), but it is actually meaningless since "eternally saved" can be wiped out with one mortal sin.
If the Reformed truly believe that they are following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and they still sin, then the Holy Spirit is guiding the Reformed to sin.
That would apply to you too, unless you renounce that the Holy Spirit leads you. We do follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but not IN perfection since we still sin. That is no reflection on Holy Spirit. Besides, how can a Comforter comfort without leading?
The Reformed seem awful hung up on control issues.
Well, I will admit that I AM! :) To me, the sovereignty of God goes directly to His identity and our understanding of Him. It directly affects my life. If God is sovereign, then I can rest on His promises and seek to obey Him with confidence. If God has delegated away the powers most important concerning humans TO humans, then my eternal destiny is in a constant state of flux. Who knows where I will end up? I hope I do a good enough job, etc. It would also mean that God does not love me in the way I thought He did. Under the delegated powers system God would love me FAR FAR less than I love my own children. I.e., I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. That's actually a scary thought to me. :) And I DO love my children very very much! :)
Good Points, imho.
It is so wonderfully simple it's hard to believe.
We really only need to ask was Jesus who he said he was and were his words accurately written down?
***As with my example, I would imagine such a thing happens very seldom. However, in the victim’s mind he IS damned, even though the truth is otherwise. This potential is one reason I object to the power claimed.***
I seriously doubt it. If the Holy Spirit would forgive a deserving individual, I think that any doubt or feeling of damnation would be lifted as well.
***I don’t see where you address my point at all. The Bible says (promises) that those who truly believe on Christ are saved. Yet, Catholicism says “maybe”. My analogy compares the promise (scripture) with the reality in Catholicism (something very different).***
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will do your best (with the help of the Holy Spirit and the Church) to act in the manner which we are commanded to act.
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will either refrain from committing great sins, or will repent of your sins in the prescribed fashion. God has promised and I am convinced will keep it. What have you promised?
***The car breaking down again is analogous to the next mortal sin. That is, the thing that the guarantee is supposed to guarantee against. My point is that in Catholicism a guarantee is claimed (one is “eternally saved”), but it is actually meaningless since “eternally saved” can be wiped out with one mortal sin.***
The guarantee is of God’s grace and the way to salvation. It is not a frogmarch. If free will didn’t matter, why did Jesus spend so much time telling us what to do? If the Holy Spirit indwelling is enough, why do we even have Scripture? All instruction manuals should come with that indwelling, right?
***That would apply to you too, unless you renounce that the Holy Spirit leads you. We do follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but not IN perfection since we still sin. That is no reflection on Holy Spirit. Besides, how can a Comforter comfort without leading?***
We believe that the Holy Spirit leads and leads us only towards perfection. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit frogmarches us. Therefore that is why we say that the Reformed God is the author of sin, and the Catholic belief says that we are the authors of sin.
***To me, the sovereignty of God goes directly to His identity and our understanding of Him. It directly affects my life. If God is sovereign, then I can rest on His promises and seek to obey Him with confidence. If God has delegated away the powers most important concerning humans TO humans, then my eternal destiny is in a constant state of flux. Who knows where I will end up?***
The sovereignty of God is not in question with the Catholics. There is huge difference between sovereignty and robotic control. God has given us free will. How does that lessen His sovereignty?
***It would also mean that God does not love me in the way I thought He did.***
God is not beholden to your wishes.
***I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. ***
He has given us free will with a description of the consequences of our actions. No excuses, not even frogmarching will do.
Only if the victim is a dunce. (No disrespect to Duns Scotus intended).
Seriously. The thing to do is (a) write a REALLY nasty letter to the bishop and cc it to the pries tin question, and go find another confessor.Awesome car analogy. To me God gives the tools, the desire to fix in the particular instance, and everything I need along the way. -- Less analagously, a gift God gives over time, I think, is the gradual conforming of my will to His. Whatever else happens in prayer, I think God "uses" our prayers to draw us closer to Him.