It is not the priest’s place to do so. It is the Holy Spirit that judges the repentance, not the priest.
Well, that isn't what very knowledgeable FR Catholics have told me before. I have been told that the priest has full discretion as to whether to grant absolution or not. For example, if a priest knows that Fred is an alcoholic, and Fred comes into confession and has obviously been drinking, then the priest can and SHOULD deny forgiveness and absolution. I have not been told that this kind of thing happens very often, however, the power is still there and that's what I was talking about.
If the priest denies someone that is truly repentant, the Holy Spirit is not subordinate to the priest (rather vice versa) and presumably would forgive that person’s sin.
In this situation, more than one FR Apostolic has quoted this to me:
John 20:22-23 : 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
This usually comes up in Apostolic succession arguments, and it has been used to point out to me that the clergy really does have the power to determine if sins are effectively forgiven or not. Most FR Catholics I have spoken with, but not all, have said that it IS God who does the actual forgiving, but that the priest has the power to "block" the request from going through according to this passage.
FK: *** Don’t you see the internal inconsistency here? If Christ’s resurrection ONLY made it POSSIBLE for us to be saved, THEN He did NOT rise to “restore our eternal life”. He only rose to make that possible. This is an ABSOLUTE DAY AND NIGHT DIFFERENCE. :)
No I don’t see any inconsistency. It is not only Scripturally supported, it was declared doctrine and practiced by the fledgling Church of the Apostles.
Let's say that your car dies on you and you have it towed to your favorite mechanic, me. I examine the car and then I tell you "I promise I will have it fixed for you by tomorrow". You come back the next day and I smile and tell you that the repairs went fine. You hop in and turn the key but nothing happens. Then you get out and ask me what's going on. I smile again and say that I actually didn't touch your car, but I have assembled all the tools you'll need to fix it yourself. According to you I fully kept my promise to fix your car.
Just for fun, let's extend the analogy. :) Now, let's say that the next time I actually do fix your car, just as I promised. You thank me and ask if my work is guaranteed. I say "Absolutely" and then hand you a certificate which says "Eternal Guarantee". Well, after a while your car breaks down again and you bring it back. You present the "Eternal Guarantee" and expect me to fix it for free. I say "No way. You see, the Eternal Guarantee is only good until the next time your car breaks down. As soon as it breaks down, the Eternal Guarantee expires. Therefore, if you want it fixed you will have to pay full price" (confession/penance). Under Apostolic thought you have no problem with this and think it is perfectly fair. :)
With God in total incremental control, the Sermon on the Mount means nothing. If I recall correctly, you consider yourself a true believer. Do you display everything that is contained within the Sermon? If not, then you cannot be a true believer; there is no man that displays them all, therefore no man is a true believer.
While God does not call for it, He nonetheless knows that we are still going to sin because of the remnant of the old man. So, we give thanks that John tells us:
1 John 2:1 : My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: KJV
Therefore, your logic only applies to a man who is under law. As Paul says, we are not under law but under grace. The law shows us that no one will be able to LIVE by it. So, by God's design we have a Savior. If the Sermon on the Mount meant as you say, then God would be contradicting Himself. That can't happen. God is fully in control, knowing that we will sin. His call is still unto perfection, even as He is perfect. How could He call for less? But He knows that we all still need a Savior so out of His abundant love He gives us one.
God spent the entire OT and most of the New trying to get the Chosen People to be saved and, generally speaking, He failed. That by itself should be proof that He gave us all free will which includes the ability to reject God.
Only a weak God can fail. Only a God who is not omnipotent can fail. If your above is representative of Apostolic belief, then it also proves the belief that man can and DOES thwart God's will. That is, the only explanation of God failing would be at the hands of man. Is this really the God whom you know?
I construe it as a rather mysterious verse in view of a lot fo things. I do not construe it as something that one ought to be the elast bit comprehensively dogmatic about given a number of puzzling aspects about it vis a vis the whole counsel of the whole of Scripture.
However, FWIW, I have persietently felt that God has quickened to me a couple of things vis a vis this verse . . .
1. He IS looking for Biblical 'excuse' to save people and NOT Biblical 'excuse' to damn them. HIS MERCY DOES triumph over even His justice.
2. ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS--in confessed up, repented up, right-standing with God--have the capaity IN SOME MYSTERIOUS SENSE AND IN SOME CONTEXTS, CONTINGENCIES--to pronounce forgiveness over others which God will pay attention to.
What precisely God will do in each case is clearly up to God and certainly will somehow, on balance, be consistent with the rest of Scripture in whatever way Scripture's Author dictates. HE IS, after all, God, and we are not.
We also know that vis a vis folks who have injured, offended, angered . . . us . . . we are OBLIGATED, ORDERED, COMMANDED BEFORE GOD--TO FORGIVE THEM WHOLESALE
Now, it's quite plausible, that virtually all other FR rel forum FREEPERS need less forgiveness than I do. However, I, personally, need to insure that I forgive EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, ROUTINELY, THOROUGHLY, as fully from the heart as I'm able and asking God to make it complete in my inner man.
But we can see in that part of The Lord's Prayer . . . a very important priority that God places on our forgiving others IN GENERAL. Add in that HIS MERCY triumphs over His judgment . . . It seems rather Scripturally true to me, that my inner sense from Holy Spirit, that God is looking for Biblical reasons to save people vs damn people is quite plausible, true.
IN ANY CASE, I PRONOUNCE FORGIVENESS for all their sins--past, present, future--OVER OTHERS AS PROMPTED BY HOLY SPIRIT. And, I have utter confidence that God will do whatever REDEMPTIVE whatevers HE WISHES TO DO--based on such a prayer and pronouncement of forgiveness. And, that in eternity, I'll see some surprising results that are likely to shock even me.
As a Protty Pentecostal, I have no great hooks to hang the following on . . . but in keeping with the above, I've often felt prompted to even pray forgiveness over others in a couple of ways and contexts that still somewhat puzzle me or mystify me. Yet, I'm rather reluctant to argue with what has been so consistently confirmed as a remarkably consistent sensing in my spirit by Holy Spirit.
1. When there's been a suicide . . . or other untimely death . . . I will pray such a pronouncement of forgiveness, IF, I feel the slightest release to do so, in my spirit. I ask God to effect whatever redemptive anything He 'legally' can and will via such a prayer. Interestingly, we do know of quite a number of cases of folks dying, being in hell, crying out to Jesus, and being delivered out of hell as they later relate after their 'NDE.' It is PLAUSIBLE to me that such prayers of forgivness might have a part in such situations.
2. When I'm concerned or someone I know is concerned about an ailing loved one etc., I will pray a pronouncement of forgiveness and ask God to present Jesus to the individual forcefully, even, if necessary, at the moment of death. Thankfully, on the latter score, there are a host of annecdotal cases where God has done just that--such that my faith on that score is stronger than with number 1. just above.
CERTAINLY God is God and can do whatever He wishes to do vis a vis reality . . . consistent with His Word and Nature.
GOD HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN, CONDESCENDED, to INVOLVE US in this great drama via prayer. Some folks [e.g. Hagin et al] go so far as to contend that God has placed The Church Universal in charge of this planet and limits His own parameters TO SOME DEGREE, in many cases [some would say all] according to our prayers.
Thankfully, millions of folks praying YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN gives him rather carte blanche anyway.
Regardless, I'm going to go on praying/pronouncing forgiveness over anyone whom Holy Spirit prompts me to pray thusly over. What, if anything, God does with such a prayer is obviously thoroughly up to Him. But I'm not going to miss an opportunity to extend what I need, so routinely, to others who may be even more clueless than I about their own need of such.
Life is complex. Mysteries abound in the spiritual realm as well as others. I certainly would rather err on the side of 'excessive forgiveness' and let God sort out the details than to arrive in eternity and realize I could have been more redemptive than I was in such matters.
Just imho, of course.
Ok, let the bashings and flame assaults begin--if God so instructs you! LOL.
Good points.
I suppose one could get into the old philisophical bugaboo about God’s “permissive” vs “absolute’ will . . .
But then, I guess Calvinists only believe that God has His UNALTERABLE STATIC ABSOLUTE WILL.
And, I don’t really enjoy such pontifications and hair splittings about things which I believe we have too little information on to be dogmatic about.
*** I have been told that the priest has full discretion as to whether to grant absolution or not. For example, if a priest knows that Fred is an alcoholic, and Fred comes into confession and has obviously been drinking, then the priest can and SHOULD deny forgiveness and absolution. I have not been told that this kind of thing happens very often, however, the power is still there and that’s what I was talking about.***
If something like that is obvious, then it is true. But the priest who denies absolution because of some petty motive such as dislike for the individual, is, I believe, overruled by the Holy Spirit and forgiveness is given if the individual is truly repentent.
***Most FR Catholics I have spoken with, but not all, have said that it IS God who does the actual forgiving, but that the priest has the power to “block” the request from going through according to this passage.***
Of course, it is God. A man cannot stop God from doing as He will, either. If the man is truly repentent, the priest cannot ‘block’ the way.
***Let’s say that your car dies on you and you have it towed to your favorite mechanic, me. I examine the car and then I tell you “I promise I will have it fixed for you by tomorrow”. You come back the next day and I smile and tell you that the repairs went fine. You hop in and turn the key but nothing happens. Then you get out and ask me what’s going on. I smile again and say that I actually didn’t touch your car, but I have assembled all the tools you’ll need to fix it yourself. According to you I fully kept my promise to fix your car.***
Slow day? No, the analogy doesn’t work. Jesus is the WAY, the Truth and the Life. The Way. The Journey. Not the limousine. It is up to us to make that journey - and He makes it possible - it is impossible otherwise.
***Just for fun, let’s extend the analogy. :) Now, let’s say that the next time I actually do fix your car, just as I promised. You thank me and ask if my work is guaranteed. I say “Absolutely” and then hand you a certificate which says “Eternal Guarantee”. Well, after a while your car breaks down again and you bring it back. You present the “Eternal Guarantee” and expect me to fix it for free. I say “No way. You see, the Eternal Guarantee is only good until the next time your car breaks down. As soon as it breaks down, the Eternal Guarantee expires. Therefore, if you want it fixed you will have to pay full price” (confession/penance). Under Apostolic thought you have no problem with this and think it is perfectly fair. :)***
Eternal salvation is not a car wreck and the Guarantee comes with conditions - the Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start.
***While God does not call for it, He nonetheless knows that we are still going to sin because of the remnant of the old man. So, we give thanks that John tells us:***
You mean old man Adam? You bet. If the Reformed truly believe that they are following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and they still sin, then the Holy Spirit is guiding the Reformed to sin. We don’t go there because we believe that God is not the author of sin. Man misses the target of God - this is sin.
***Only a weak God can fail. Only a God who is not omnipotent can fail. If your above is representative of Apostolic belief, then it also proves the belief that man can and DOES thwart God’s will. That is, the only explanation of God failing would be at the hands of man. Is this really the God whom you know?**
The God that we are familiar with has given free will to all. Including the free will to reject Him. If His will is that we have free will, then God does not fail.
The Reformed seem awful hung up on control issues.