For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
[Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. – I Corinthians 12:12-31
Have you ever heard a preacher who did not have the gift of preaching? He does more harm than good.
The same holds for any person, council or assembly that holds itself to be the head of the body of Christ, the church. Christ is the head of the church. So when any one or any thing tries to be the head of the body of Christ, the result is more harm than good.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. – Colossians 2:16—23
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. – Colossians 2:16—23
INDEED! Thanks Big.
I would suggest that not acknowledging the promises God makes to the Apostles and the Church is an instance of "diminishing" His word. (And, of course, we are told that mostly we "add" to it.)
SO I would say that to submit to God would imply a duty to acknowledge the Catholic Church. And so I have to say that I do not think that the position you take really involves submission only and entirely to God. I think this school of one-on-one, God and me, stuff is a tradition arising in the past couple of centuries, though it cropped up among the Montanists and others earlier on.
To me it seems to be picking and choosing among His commands. I quite understand that it looks different from over there where you are.
So, much as I love the Colossians, Galatians and Romans passages you quoted, it seems to me they work either way. I can say them (and frequently do!) with as much fervor and resolve as you.
(typing with cat leaning on my arm here ...)
Who disputes that "God is greater than all?" Not me.
Who says one gift is "more important" than another? Not me. However, your stand seems to be precisely that of hand saying to another member, "'I have no need of thee.' because God speaks to me directly and my perception is so reliable that I don't need to go to other members of the body, especially to those members whose office is thought by some to be to check such things."
Have you ever heard a preacher who did not have the gift of preaching? He does more harm than good.
The same holds for any person, council or assembly that holds itself to be the head of the body of Christ, the church. Christ is the head of the church.
Of COURSE Christ is the head of the Church. Are YOU (not the others whom you pinged. I've read too many times what they say about us.) seriously saying that Catholics don't think so? "He is the head of the Body the Church! that must come up in evening prayer once a week or so.
So no one is asking you to submit to the doctrines and traditions "of men", anymore than Paul submitted to the cotrines and traditions of men when he went to check if he was running or had run in vain. Are you greater than Paul? Is your closeness to God and knowledge of His will greater than Paul's? How is what you are saying different from claiming that Paul submitted himself to the doctrines and (very young) traditions of men.?
Sanctification is certainly a process, a "walk" (or, for Paul, a "run"), but you're saying it's a walk in which you are your own guide because you have a greater certainty that you are not running in vain that Paul does, since he checked with Cephas and those of repute.
Further, I would say that you put down and pick up the principles of logic at will. You have presented an argument in the two posts to which I am responding. Without the principles of logic it's just noise.
So when you adduce the "of Paul... of Apollos" passage, you are implying that the Catholic Church is one "denomination" among many, and further that to focus on a denomination is to focus on "doctrines and traditions of men".
But there WERE no "denominations" as such, no need for the term, even, until someone said, "I am of Luther,": and another "I am of Calvin," and another, "I am of Henry VII" and another I am of Menno Sims" or "Johann Hus" and so forth. (There were "factions", yes, but not denominations.) We and the Orthodox, despite our own quarrels, (and we were maybe more alert to so-called "Reform" because it was being taken out of our hide -- or our part of it) looked upon this new "I am of the Wesley Brothers" stuff with sadness, horror and, regrettably, anger.
But we have no reached a point where there are some as well saying,"I am of Christ" (I Cor 1:12). And so we have "non-denominational" Christians, because the earlier "Disciples of Christ" (aka "Christians" - ended up being as much a denomination now as they were a "faction" when Paul wrote to them in the church at Corinth. And if you listen you will hear that "non-denominational" is becoming as much a "denomination" as anything else these days.
To appeal for the authority of the Orthodox or Catholic Churches is NOT to substitute a head for Christ, or even to claim a "Denomination" or "religion" (in hosepipe's lingo) but to accept His word to Cephas and to those in the upper room who later approved Paul's ministry and produced a letter in which they seemed unabashedly to claim that they could speak for the Holy Spirit.
(Hosepipe insists it's a family. Well who is it who calls their leader "Papa"?)
We all agree that these leaders are the same people who forsook Christ and fled, and that their leader denied Him thrice. We are not under any illusions about who they are when not filled with the Spirit and power, and we certainly don't think of them as head in PLACE of Christ! What nonsense it is to pretend that we do! I may be stupid, but I am not THAT stupid.
But you have thrown over board the tools of conversation -- although you seem ready to recover them to argue or explain your points. And, unless I misunderstand, you appear to claim that you are closer to God and given more assurance than Saint Paul was, and so close that the examples of the saints of the Bible need not apply to you personally.
I don't mean this in a finger-wagging way. What may seem to you like diffidence is in fact confidence that God can work it out. And you are so generous and graceful in your manner that I think we can disagree without enmity. But, well, let's say that While the things of God seem like foolishness to those carnally wise, it's not true that every time something looks like foolishness the person who thinks so is carnally wise. Some things seem foolish even to the saints.
But let us indeed give Him the glory first, for His mercies endure for ever.
Wonderful answer, A-G. I think the problem with many churches that people do try to operate out of their giftings. If God has gifted me to be a hand and I operate out of a foot, whew, clumsy to say the least. There are people who should never be preachers or Sunday School teachers. I only taught SS because there were so few in my old church who would. It was NOT my gifting at all, but I was willing to do it. Too many churches operate that way. People either don’t know their giftings or they don’t want to know.