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“The heretic’s problem, not that of The Church

AS we used to jokingly say at seminary,”Wow! WHAT a PAStor!”. The is, if you find yourself with the “care of souls”, at least here in the West, it’s your problem, at least if they come to you for help or counsel.”

I disagree. The heretic’s heresy is not The Church’s problem any more than an illness is the “problem” of the physician. Both The Church, and by extension the priests and deacons and holy monastics, and hospitals (and their physicians) seek to cure the illness. The Church is of course a hospital for sick souls as the Fathers say. But the “sickness” is the patient’s problem. He’s the one who will live a limited life or even die if he isn’t cured, not the physician or the clergy. And like a physician, the clergy can only try to help. They can’t force anyone to take the medicine which will restore his or her life.

“The problem of the culpability of the possessed is not so interesting, though I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Depends on how possessed and really what you mean by possessed. In at least one way to look at it, “culpability” as such, has little or nothing to do with theosis. Its simply a matter of conformity to Christ. I am not saying I agree with that.

“Is the Church the “mystical body of Christ” or not?”

Yes, The Church is.

“Can we articulate some standard by which we say this baptized person is NOT a member of the Church and that one isa member in very bad standing?”

Sure. Unless one is baptized according to the sacrament of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...or according to the sacrament of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, one is not thereby a member of The Church. A member in bad standing is just that, a member in bad standing. As an example, before communion, Orthodox priests will often announce that communion is reserved for Orthodox Christians who are properly prepared by fasting and confession and who live their lives in accord with the dictates of The Church. There are Orthodox Christians who have married outside The Church, or who are “living in sin” with another person or who are known to have committed a grave sin who, while members of The Church, are not in good standing and thus cannot receive the Eucharist.

“In terms of membership in (a) Christ’s Body, or (b) the Church, what are the graces of Baptism?”

I don’t understand your question. Try again.

“Is that just such a legalistic Western Question that it makes you want to puke?”

“Do you think this: (a)All heresies interfere with or prevent theosis; (b) but only some heresies sort of ispo facto put the heretic out of the Church member, while others don’t?”

All heresies at a minimum interfere with theosis because all heresies teach falsehood about God and if we believe false things about God, we will be unable to thoroughly conform ourselves to him or otherwise leave ourselves open to demonic, soul destroying practices by cutting ourselves off from The Church, something we sadly witness everyday in this country. All heretics are enemies of God to a greater or lesser extent and therefore cut themselves off from Him to greater or lesser extents, with greater or lesser deleterious effects on theosis.

“Is Atheism a heresy? (This is a question about the definition of “heresy”. I’d say Atheism is NOT a heresy, Atheists are just flat OUT, while a heretic sort of exists in the context of Xty. For example, in my usage a heretic thinks IHS is a rutabaga, or a human only, while an Atheist thinks there isn’t any God of whom IHS is the incarnation.”

Atheism is not a heresy but rather the result of particular Western Christian heresies.

Only if you are heading into that “created grace” stuff.

As to the heretic being the Church's problem: I like to say,"It's not your fault, but it's your problem." Yeah, I tend to ward the codependent end of the spectrum, so I think that if one of my sheepies is sick, it's my problem. But you're right. I HAVE been known to put a sheep down (in my REAL, not parabolical, flock, I hasten to add ...) You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think, and some chose to be ill and cannot give up their choice.

Ah, the "Culpability and thesosis" comment prods me to remember the appearance we give of being legalistic. (Not saying it's NOT a reality, leaving that open, thus saying "appearance" only.)

The 'will' to me is conceptually problematic. But I do think what one might call spiritual sicknesses of the will abound. Theosis, I would suggest, can by said at some point to involve, even to require, the will to self-abandonment, the will to be filled with something other than oneself.

I think there are demonic "intelligences" who can chain or cripple the will. I think further this can happen, sometimes, "just because", but other times because the possessed has been monkeying around where he ought not to have been monkeying around.

IN the latter case, once the demon is driven out, there may still be some illness of the will that led the victim to make himself vulnerable to possession -- even if it's only a failure to take advantage of the usual spiritual prophylaxis. If that okay to say?

The money phrase in the question about Baptism is "according to the sacrament of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...or according to the sacrament of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, ...". For us all you need is (a) An intention to baptize - and that could be merely "I am trying to do whatever it is the Church does when she baptizes." (b) Water. (c) A baptismal formula in involving the Trinity, such as, "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." IF all that has happened, the catechumen is sho' 'nuff a member of the Church and, to say the same thing another way, grafted into the mystical Body of Christ. Whether he perseveres to the end is another story.

And so a person can be a member but in "bad standing" or in what you might call "imperfect standing", like a child who is not admitted to all the sacraments because of age and discretion and such, or like Alamo-Girl who (I assume she is baptize as specified above) does not agree that the Church that we're talking about is more than an institution of men and does not agree with what we hold to be de fide. A member, to be sure, but not yet appropriate for "all the rights and privileges thereunto appertaining".

The question you did not understand, rephrased: We say that in Baptism God grafts you into the body of Christ, forgives all your sins up to that point, grants you Spiritual rebirth (whether you feel it or not), and like that. What do you all say happens at Baptism?

We're on the same page about heresies and theosis, I think.

I don't get the Atheism as a result of Western heresies because I would have thought there were atheists before the Church. However I do think many atheists say"I don't believe in God," because they don't believe in some cartoon figure presented by crappy catechesis in the West, among us papists as well as among the separated brethren. I often find myself trying to explain that I don't believe in the god they don't believe either.

Thanks for the conversation.