[Kolokotronis]

“My take on Dominus Iesus And on the Catechism is that Baptism (intention to baptize + water + trinitarian words) is the ordinary means of becoming a member of the Church. It is “ordinarily necessary” — but not absolutely necessary.”

That’s loose theology, MD. Baptism, and Rome and the East understand the sacrament differently, at least along the margins, may very well signify a dedication of a person to God, but done outside The Church (and it is a point that there is absolutely no such thing as an “invisible” Church)and though the person may thereby become a Christian, that person is not ipso facto a member of The Church. As we know, they may be members of “ecclesial bodies” or “para-ecclesial groups” as we have sometimes called them, but not The Church. If they espouse heresy, they are not members of The Church but rather, as +John Chrysostomos calls them, “enemies of God”, perhaps lead there by the Evil One, but to the extent that they see The Church, to the extent that the teachings of The Church are known to them and nevertheless they reject them for heretical teachings like, for example, forms of universalism, they are cut off from The Church and the sacraments instituted by God for our Theosis.

The tough case, and we all know that tough cases make bad law, are those where by reason of delusion brought about by demonic influences, Christians reject The Church in a true and sincere belief that they are doing God’s will instead of the Evil One’s. I suppose we have to trust to God’s mercy there, as we do for ourselves and our own. My personal opinion is that the overwhelming majority of members of those eccesial groups are sincere, but resolutely refuse to undertake the sort of “self examination” in light of the teachings of The Church which might lead to that point where a choice must be made.

Easy for me to say, I suppose.

[blue-duncan]

Alright, alright, counselor, define and describe “The Church” for the benefit of the court reporter and the record, and keep your voice up.

[Mad Dawg]

Propositions, (Get me my hammer! Which way to the chapel door?

• Baptism is an efficacious grafting into the Body of Christ.
• The Church is visible, sho' 'nuff.
• However there a members of the Church in REALLY crappy standing (term of art, no?) and their connection to the Church is virtually imperceptible (like my typing skills).
• The distinction between 'Christian' and "member of the Church" is not a real distinction.
• Heretics (those who embrace error with a sufficient degree of knowledge that the CHurch teaches otherwise, a sufficient degree of knowledge of the Church's grounds to claim authority, and a ditto of intent) are members of the Church in really awful standing.Heretics and those who cling to error with varying degrees of intent and culpability, harm themselves and other members of the body of Christ, and, especially, their misbelief hinders to the point of prevention theosis.
• To the extent that actions, internal or external, are directly attributable to demonic control, and to the extent that that control is the partially or wholly the result of some sin of the person being controlled, they are not culpable.
• But in the immediately preceding point and in those dealing with awareness and willfulness of misblelief cases are difficult to determine.
• In any event, Truth, and the desire and ability to embrace Him are the gift of God.

Oops, I just remembered an appointment elsewhere ..... See ya. Gotta go.

IN closing, I'd just like to say

DOE SNOT