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To: kosta50; blue-duncan
The divinity of Jesus is introduced for the first time in the NT in John's Gospel, written at the very end of the 1st century (and as such should be placed at the very end of the bible and not after the Gospel of Luke), when the Christian doctrine had fully evolved and Christ's divinity had become a matter of faith. (emphasis added)

Kosta, from our conversations and now here, this timing problem of yours is getting way out of hand. :) From your above, it sounds like you are saying that Christians didn't believe that Christ was God until John was written 60 or 70 years after the fact. Is that right? When I brought this type of thing up before you said, in effect, that nobody else heard it so it didn't exist until it was written in the Gospels. IOW, nothing COUNTS until it was written later (an ironic view from an Orthodox perspective :). Anyway, what do you say was taught orally until the Gospels were written? If nothing counts until it is written then there was nothing to teach!! :)

3,069 posted on 02/26/2008 3:00:55 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; blue-duncan
Kosta, from our conversations and now here, this timing problem of yours is getting way out of hand

Because, maybe, in the back of your mind, you know that it is singificant although not desirable in your preconceived picture of the development of Christianity?

From your above, it sounds like you are saying that Christians didn't believe that Christ was God until John was written 60 or 70 years after the fact. Is that right?

We can only speculate what was taught orally. And we can hope that what was taught orally is the same thing that was written down later on, beginning after 70 AD (destruction of Jerusalem's Temple).

Unless something changed between 33 AD and after 70 AD, and the Epistles and Synoptic Gospels took a u-turn, Christ is not specifically called God (again "Lord" is not exclusively used for God), and neither is the Spirit of God. Son of God and Spirit of God are Jewish terms interpreted by Christians in a different fashion as, for instance, the word "cool" has evolved into something other than indicating ambient temperature.

History tells us that calling Christ or any human for that matter "God" in Israel would have bee taken as utmost blasphemy and would have meant an automatic death, by stoning or otherwise. So, obviously the followers of Christ could not go to synagogues they attended and preached Jesus to be God.

So, neither do the early Gospels, nor the Epistles explicitly call Christ "God," nor did they treat Him as deity. In the time span, between the Synoptic Gospels and St. John's Gospel (20-30 years), something happened.

At the tail end of that time span, the rabbis rejected everything Christian (Jamnia), and instituted a daily prayer cursing "heretics" (minim), as the last remnants of the Church were evicted from the synagogues.

It is rather obvious that Christians, in time, did come to believe that Christ is God (they sure didn't in Acts 1!), and that Son of God in His case was not just a title reserved for the angles and kings (as in Judaism) but literally means God's only begotten Son, God of God, True Light of True Light, of one essence as the Father, as the Creed was was later formulated, just as they, in time, came to believe that the Holy Spirit is not just the "power of God" (Judaic meaning), but actually God Himself, co-eternal and co-substantial with the Father and the Son.

Synoptic Gospels express Christ's humanity as much as, some 20-30 years later—free form constraints of Judaism, and Sanhedrin, St. John's Gospel expresses Christ's divinity.

But we also know that St. Paul's Epistles do not call him God, but an image of God (as one would expect from second Adam, a perfect man), even though Paul was not constrained by Israel's rule of the Sanhedrin, which tells us that Christ's divinity is something that became gradually known because, as the Holy Apostle reminds us, we "see dimly" now and things become clearer as we continue life in Christ.

The fact that the Epistles of St. Paul express the same humanity of Christ and not His divinity as the Synaptic Gospels gives us every reason to believe that the Synaptic Gospels, when they were written some 40 years after the Crucfixion, reflected what was taught up to that point in Christian history, and that St. John's Gospel is a new development in Christian understanding of Christ as fully divine as well as fully human.

3,102 posted on 02/26/2008 9:04:55 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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