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Man leads and God follows. Further, your Church claims that your clergy and your clergy alone can request that God do certain things and God will ALWAYS do those things EVEN IF the priest is unworthy (supernatural powers).

It's interesting that this comes up as some are questioning A-G's claim (if such it be) to be speaking in or for the Spirit.

I'm sure A-G would not be claiming "supernatural powers" for herself but would rather say something like the gift was God's to give and for reasons best known to HImself He'd given it to her, at least for now.

I've heard plenty of guys, including Jimmy Swaggart, talk about "my ministry". It's dangerous run of phrase because it can lead us to think that our call is something of ours, belinging to US, not something we owe God. I suppose some of our clergy think '"->I<- have supernatural powers!" But when I thought I was a priest I thought of myself what I now think of the RC (and orthodox) clergy, that what they have is God's promise, and nothing of their own.

Again the notion of "Apostolicity", of agency and delegation and deputization, all those concepts hover around the question of the charisms of the clergy.

Sure, it amounts to ALMOST the same thing "on the ground", but I think the difference is important. The minister who thinks of the ministry as "his" is in trouble. You remember when Swaggart's church yanked his "commission", and he said he wasn't going to quite because "his ministry" was too important? I trembled for him then.

If you read our Mass or Baptismal prayers, the language is not, "Hold my beer and watch this!" but a language of pleading, of NOT acting like we take God's promises (as we think of them) for granted.

According to your Church, every single time a person does not choose God, he thwarts God's will. You can't have it both ways. Either man is free to thwart God's will or he isn't.If I think of God as in time, I think of Him saying,"Well it certainly is a good thing that an evening is as a thousand years because I've got to come up with a new way to snag Dawg."

But I don't much think of Him as in time.

I freely confess that this is borderline senseless babbling. But I'm trying to deny the kind of "either/or" that you are presenting.

What do you all make of Jacob wrassling the angel?

Thank you so much for the ping! I will try to remember and not size my posts when replying to you, dear Mad Dawg.

It's interesting that this comes up as some are questioning A-G's claim (if such it be) to be speaking in or for the Spirit. I'm sure A-G would not be claiming "supernatural powers" for herself but would rather say something like the gift was God's to give and for reasons best known to HImself He'd given it to her, at least for now.

I am just like every other Christian. We all have been given "ears to hear" - we all have been reborn by the Spirit - we all are indwelled by the Spirit. With emphasis:

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:4-5

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. – John 6:44

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9

To God be the glory!

FK: "Man leads and God follows. Further, your Church claims that your clergy and your clergy alone can request that God do certain things and God will ALWAYS do those things EVEN IF the priest is unworthy (supernatural powers)."

It's interesting that this comes up as some are questioning A-G's claim (if such it be) to be speaking in or for the Spirit.

I think the distinction, as AG alluded to in her post, is that she in no way claims to be in any sort of elite "class" of Christians. We all receive spiritual gifts, but AG is NOT saying that her gifts are given to her BECAUSE of class. I think this is different than with the Apostolic clergy/hierarchy. For example, if faith and righteousness were measurable on a scale imagine there were two men with exactly the same number. One was a priest and one was a layman. The Church would see the priest as having exclusive rights to supernatural powers based solely on his class within Christianity.

The minister who thinks of the ministry as "his" is in trouble.

Yes, I agree with you. I think sometimes it can be an innocent, but potentially unfortunate choice of words, but other times it shows that the person doesn't have his priorities straight. OTOH, I have no problem or worry when Paul talks about "my Gospel". I think he deserves some slack on that. :)

What do you all make of Jacob wrassling the angel?

Well, in the context of the "thwarting God's will" discussion, I don't think for a minute that Jacob actually "defeated" the angel. The angel crippled Jacob with a mere touch. It was also not the angel's intention to kill Jacob. I see it as more of a learning experience, and Jacob also seemed to understand that this was not a normal fight. Unless there was a custom of which I am unaware, I don't ask my enemies for a blessing. :)