[Kolokotronis]

” My point was an academic one - whenever the Catholic/Orthodox Church claims that everyone everywhere believed thus and so, that claim is empty because of their own actions (or inactions) in eliminating from the historical record the documents which evidence beliefs the earliest Christians held but that the powers that be in the Church did not hold.”

You clearly misunderstand our point. The Church always and everywhere has believed the same things and worshiped in the same manner with minor variations. Heretics, which have been around since Acts in greater or lesser numbers, have not believed the same things The Church has. That’s why we call them heretics, AG. Thus, what you call the “beliefs of the earliest Christians” evidence of which you say The Church destroyed, were really the beliefs of heretics, not Christians.

[Quix]

with minor variations

= = =

Perhaps MORE true with the EO than the RC edifice . . . however, sufficiently untrue, imho . . . as to be laughable.

actually . . . guffawable.

[stfassisi]

“”You clearly misunderstand our point. The Church always and everywhere has believed the same things and worshiped in the same manner with minor variations. Heretics, which have been around since Acts in greater or lesser numbers, have not believed the same things The Church has. That’s why we call them heretics, AG. Thus, what you call the “beliefs of the earliest Christians” evidence of which you say The Church destroyed, were really the beliefs of heretics, not Christians.””

Bingo!

One can only imagine how many other groups would be grasping on to even more heretical teachings if the Church had not destroyed them.

It was the Church guided by the Holy Spirit that destroyed what God wanted destroyed!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Emphasis mine:

You clearly misunderstand our point. The Church always and everywhere has believed the same things and worshiped in the same manner with minor variations. Heretics, which have been around since Acts in greater or lesser numbers, have not believed the same things The Church has. That’s why we call them heretics, AG. Thus, what you call the “beliefs of the earliest Christians” evidence of which you say The Church destroyed, were really the beliefs of heretics, not Christians.

I have offered Enoch as "Exhibit A."

Charlesworth lists the following as examples where the New Testament thought was influenced by Enoch: Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Hebrews, 1 John and Revelation. The scope of influence he says includes the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism.

If belief in some or all of Enoch would make a person "heretic" as you suggest, then Peter, John, Paul, Matthew, Luke, and Jude would all be "heretics" because of their direct and indirect references to Enoch. And all of the above Scriptures would have to be "eliminated" or "destroyed" as stfassisi suggests.

Ditto for Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Clement of Alexandria. They would be heretics along with Tertullian and anyone else who found a smidgen of truth in Enoch. And like Tertullian, most of their works would also have to be "eliminated."

Indeed, if Peter were found a heretic for believing Enoch about angels chained under darkness until judgment and citing it in his epistle - then the foundation of Matthew 16 for the supremacy of Rome based on Peter as a rock like Abraham - but now deemed "heretic" - would melt away.

Enoch is a theological "catch 22" for the Catholic Church underscored by hard archeological evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls. The carbon dating of the copies found there show that Enoch was in currency and used and believed at least 200 years before Christ and through the writing of the Gospels and Epistles - all the way up until the Church decided to eliminate it (Philastrius et al.)

BTW, for my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ reading along here - the word from the scholars is that Enoch was in oblivion to the West at the time of Martin Luther through 1775. Further, that they relied on the Jewish "canon" for the Old Testament and the Jews had since the second century A.D. (Simeon ben Jochai et al) also "eliminated" Enoch because of its clear references to the Messiah as more than the earthy king they expected and other prophesies in Enoch which would have pointed to Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

stfassisi: It was the Church guided by the Holy Spirit that destroyed what God wanted destroyed!

God is not powerless to destroy - or keep destroyed - what He wants destroyed. Nor is He powerless to bring back that which He did not want destroyed or that which He wants concealed until a later time.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. - Revelation 10:4

God also hides Truth in plain view:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. – Matthew 13:10-13

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:8-11

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:12-13

Enoch declares that it is for the elect ones at the end of times:

The blessing of Enoch; with which he blessed the elect and the righteous who would be present on the day of tribulation at (the time of) the removal of all the ungodly ones. And Enoch, the blessed and righteous man of the Lord, took up (his parable) while his eyes were open and he saw, and said "(This is) a holy vision from the heavens which the angels showed me; and I heard from them everything and I understood. I look not for this generation but for the distant one that is coming. I speak about the elect ones and concerning them. (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Volume I, 1 Enoch)

I do not know if Enoch is a book held back until the end of days - but I do not think it should be ignored. If a person reads Enoch and nothing speaks to his spirit, then fine. If it does, then fine.

My reason for posting all this information on Enoch is to make the case that the Catholic Church claim that the church always and everyone believed thus and so is patently empty.

If anyone is interested in reading Enoch, I very strongly recommend Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha. Most of the other translations predate the Dead Sea Scrolls, do not include manuscript comparisons, 2 and 3 Enoch and scholarly footnotes and commentary.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!