Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights
Is it really your view that Christ thought of all Gentiles as dogs?

He didn't say to "this dog" but to "dogs" (Canaanites) in general.

Let's see what the scriptures say about the story you bring up:

Matt 15:  If your own passage doesn't show that Christ also came to save Gentiles then I don't know what does.

The Gospel here simply expresses the standard Judaic view of the Gentiles. What Christ did was recognize that there were Gentiles who were righteous.  Such Gentiles are known in Judaism as " the righteous Gentiles" or "Noahides," or "people at the gate." And, yes, Judaism believes they are saved by tagging along with the Jews. But that was not the purpose of Messiah's coming according to Judaism. The example in Mat 15 is simply an act/work of mercy (mitzvah) that any observant Jew is expected to perform, and is part of over 600 God's commandments the Jews are expected to follow (some of them are missions, and some of them are omissions). 

Is your contention that Christ was surprised by this and made a one-time exception?

Not at all. Mitzvot (plural of mitzvah) is part of every practicing Jew's daily life.

In Christ's own words it SHOWED that the "lost sheep of Israel" included Gentiles. That is, EXACTLY as Paul said, BTW.

Nothing could be farther form the truth, FK. Your interpretation neglects the Nohaides. Chances are you never even heard of them, and how they fit into Judaism.

Kosta: We know, as a biblical fact, that the only reason the Gospels were taken to the Gentiles is because the Jews rejected them (Act 13:46).

FK: Forgive me if this sounds like a cheap shot, but I didn't think you believed much in Biblical "facts"

I don't care if the shot is cheap or not, but I do care of your reply adequately addresses my statement. In this case it doesn't. I am simply stating what the Bible says. I imagine that all those who accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God are obligated to accept as immutable truth. Acts 13:46 leave no doubt why the message was taken to the Gentiles: the Jews rejected it (and continue to reject is to this day). 

I don't mean it as a cheap shot, but it seems to me that, when the Bible doesn't agree with Protestant theology, it is ignored (cherry-picking).  Not only is there nowhere in the Gospels a verse that says Israel includes Gentiles.

St. Paul actually says that Jews are by nature somehow different from Gentiles:

"We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles" (Gal 2:15)

In any event, Acts 13:46 is a statement of PROCESS, not a declaration that God had failed and now we're going to do this

There is nothing to indicate this to be a process, FK. It's quite definitive. Nothing could pimpled form the way it is expressed to mean that sometime in the future there is hope for the Jews to change their mind.

That is, unless you want to say that God failed, or that the Bible is wrong.

It is only God's "failure" if you believe God pulls all the things and we are just lifeless puppets. If you recognize that God gave man freedom to choose, then it is not God who failed, but man. God simply keeps on giving everyone more and more chance to repent, no matter how much people keep throwing those chances away.

God intended what happened with the Jews all along

Nope. He foreknew what choices everyone would make. What we do affects us, not God. God helps those who help themselves.

SO THAT the Gospels would then be preached to the Gentiles.

If that is so, He makes no hints about this in His mission. Remember, the Gospels set the stage. Everyone else in the NT follows. What is in the Gospels is the standard against which all NT writings must be reconciled. Not the other way around.

The Bible says first to the Jew, and then ... I still can't comprehend the idea that God needed a "bailout" to save this Christianity thing that He started on earth. I mean, what sort of God is this inept?

That is Paul's gospel, FK. The "Bible" is the wrong word to sue because it misleads the reader. Paul, and only Paul says that. No one else, especially the Gospels.

Christ taught that He came to fulfill OT Law, and that not a single jot or tittle of that Law would pass away until He had completed His mission. Christ also included Gentiles within the body of those He ministered to

Not as part of His mission and ministry.

2,320 posted on 02/19/2008 1:05:26 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2204 | View Replies ]


To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
FK: "In Christ's own words it SHOWED that the "lost sheep of Israel" included Gentiles. That is, EXACTLY as Paul said, BTW."

Nothing could be farther form the truth, FK. Your interpretation neglects the Nohaides. Chances are you never even heard of them, and how they fit into Judaism.

I don't see what relevance your term "Nohaides" has to anything we're talking about. Did "righteous Gentiles" get into Heaven without being saved? If not then Jesus came to save them too, just as Jesus and Paul both say. What does it matter how Nohaides fit into Judaism? The Jews were wrong about many things at that time.

I don't mean it as a cheap shot, but it seems to me that, when the Bible doesn't agree with Protestant theology, it is ignored (cherry-picking). Not only is there nowhere in the Gospels a verse that says Israel includes Gentiles.

Of course I would say it is the reverse. :) Take for example your above in which you admit to cherry-picking your interpretation of the Gospels while throwing out other NT scripture when you can't reconcile them. The Gospels are true AND Paul's writings are true.

St. Paul actually says that Jews are by nature somehow different from Gentiles: "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles" (Gal 2:15)

He means by birth. He doesn't mean that Gentiles have a sinful nature and Jews do not. That would be ridiculous. Here is the word used:

NT:5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from NT:5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Talk about cherry-picking! :) If Paul taught anything he taught that all men are equally guilty before God, and that all need a Savior, including Jews.

FK: "God intended what happened with the Jews all along."

Nope. He foreknew what choices everyone would make. What we do affects us, not God. God helps those who help themselves.

I know that many people think that God helps those who help themselves, but the truth is that it is the opposite. Again from that Got Questions? website I quoted earlier:

Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This is actually a quote from Ben Franklin and it appeared in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

In terms of salvation, we are all utterly helpless. We are all infected by sin (Romans 3:23), and condemned as a result of that sin (Romans 6:23). Nothing we can do on our own can remedy this situation (Isaiah 64:6). Thankfully, God is the helper of the helpless. While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us (Romans 5:8). Jesus paid the penalty that we were incapable of paying (2 Corinthians 5:21). God provided the "help" that we need precisely because we could not help ourselves.

Apart from salvation, there is perhaps a way that the concept "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many Christians fall into the trap of inactivity. Many Christians ask God for help, but then expect God to do everything Himself. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that God will provide according to His will and in His timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the Lord to help you find a job - but then be active in actually looking for a job. While it is in His power to do so, it is highly unlikely that God will cause employers to come looking for you!

The last paragraph is like the joke about the guy stranded on his roof in a flood. So, that part is true because it is not salvational. But we WERE talking about salvational issues with the Jews and Gentiles. "God helps those who help themselves" may be the most common form of stating a works-based salvation theology.

2,900 posted on 02/25/2008 1:40:15 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2320 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson