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To: blue-duncan

***Before man sinned God had devised the punishment for sin Gen. 2:17, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” The fact of sin had already been created and provided for. So where did the concept originate? Certainly not in man for he had no categories to devise it as yet. His freedom was not absolute for he was created and susceptible to his created passions and ambitions.***

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin; he did not make them sin. Bit of a difference, no?

The great deceiver was made by God to be the brightest light in the sky, yet, he sinned the first and the greatest. Did God make satan sin?


2,229 posted on 02/18/2008 12:57:30 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; stfassisi; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ...
Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Actually, IT IS! :) I could have sworn there was a good Warfield piece on this, but regrettably, I couldn't find it. The following is the next best I could do. It is excerpts from Reformed Doctrine of Predestination -- Chapter VI - The Foreknowledge of God . (This is from "The Reformed Presbyterian Church" in Bloomington, IN.:

The Arminian objection against foreordination bears with equal force against the foreknowledge of God. What God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain.

Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago. The Arminian doctrine, in rejecting foreordination, rejects the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined. Our choice as to what determines the certainty of future events narrows down to two alternatives — the foreordination of the wise and merciful heavenly Father, or the working of blind, physical fate.

When the Arminian is confronted with the argument from the foreknowledge of God, he has to admit the certainty or fixity of future events. Yet when dealing with the problem of free agency he wishes to maintain that the acts of free agents are uncertain and ultimately dependent on the choice of the person,—which is plainly an inconsistent position. A view which holds that the free acts of men are uncertain, sacrifices the sovereignty of God in order to preserve the freedom of men.

Furthermore, if the acts of free agents are in themselves uncertain, God must then wait until the event has had its issue before making His plans. In trying to convert a soul, then He would be conceived of as working in the same manner that Napoleon is said to have gone into battle-with three or four plans in mind, so that if the first failed, he could fall back upon the second, and if that failed, then the third, and so on, —a view which is altogether inconsistent with a true view of His nature. He would then be ignorant of much of the future and would daily be gaining vast stores of knowledge. His government of the world also, in that case, would be very uncertain and changeable, dependent as it would be on the unforeseen conduct of men.

To deny God the perfections of foreknowledge and immutability is to represent Him as a disappointed and unhappy being who is often checkmated and defeated by His creatures. But who can really believe that in the presence of man the Great Jehovah must sit waiting, inquiring, "What will he do?" Yet unless Arminianism denies the foreknowledge of God, it stands defenseless before the logical consistency of Calvinism; for foreknowledge implies certainty and certainty implies foreordination.

What is the Apostolic argument against this?

2,665 posted on 02/22/2008 1:24:18 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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