By presuming to be the mouthpieces of God.
So, if man is in control, that is NOT prideful
Being free is not a presumption of pride. We are not robots.
I am fully confident as well [that all of the elect on these threads could point out how they've changed over the years. How the desire to do bad things has diminished–wmfights].
A change in human desire can happen for many reasons. Wew don't necessarily know why we change in the course of a lifetime.
But to some, our testimonies must be thrown out in toto, because they do not rise to the level of "proof" required by some who do not believe in such phenomena.
Yes, it burns you doesn't it, because if you had proof you would be the first to post it! So, you dismiss it. Conveniently. It's funny how we demand proof for everything else in life except what we believe. Amazing.
And it is not that "some of us" do not believe in such a phenomenon (i.e. that we can become kinder, gentler creatures, and whish to do unto others as we would others do unto us), but that some of us are honest enough to say "I really don't know why this change took place but if it is from God, I thank Him from the bottom of my heart."
Short of a personal visit by God through a burning bush experience, I do not think that proof exists for these people in what we are talking about.
If you have no proof, then it is an assumption. If you believe an assumption, then it is a belief and not a fact. You are free to believe whatever you want. My only objection is when people present what they believe in (for whatever reason) as a matter of fact. That goes for Calvinsits as well as the Orthodox, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Shinto, Hindus, etc.
The Bible is the "mouthpiece of God" and the ability to hear and understand that "mouthpiece" is given by God alone through the work of the Holy Spirit.
You invest the title of "mouthpiece of God" in fallible men when God tells us His "every word is pure" and leads to a correct understanding of His will and our lives within that will.
It's just not that difficult, but men enjoy making it seem difficult. Probably because for some of them, it is difficult and very near impossible to understand.
As God wills.
By presuming to be the mouthpieces of God.
Actually, that presumption was grabbed soon after all the Apostles were gone. Our clergies do not claim the supernatural powers that your clergies do (you and the Latins). Our leaders have no need for that sort of power to spiritually guide the flock. All they need are the indwelling Spirit and the Scriptures.
Being free is not a presumption of pride. We are not robots.
Perceived, experienced, or "relative" freedom is very different from "freedom to control" God. Once it is believed that man determines his own way and destiny then it certainly is a presumption of pride. That is, unless one believes in a weak or irresponsible God.
A change in human desire can happen for many reasons. We don't necessarily know why we change in the course of a lifetime.
If we change because we have been given faith, then we should know why. If we change from "bad" to "worse", then we will not know why.
FK: "But to some, our testimonies must be thrown out in toto, because they do not rise to the level of "proof" required by some who do not believe in such phenomena."
Yes, it burns you doesn't it, because if you had proof you would be the first to post it! So, you dismiss it. Conveniently. It's funny how we demand proof for everything else in life except what we believe. Amazing.
It used to "burn me". :) But now not so much. I know I have used my best arguments with you based on both Scripture and reason. So, I have just come to think that there exists no proof that you as an individual would accept. That part is out of my hands, and there is nothing I can do about it. All of us have different levels of proof that we will accept on certain things. Some accept proof on a preponderance, or a reasonable proof, or sometimes it must be beyond a reasonable doubt. Still others might require it to a scientific certitude, by the measure of science at a given time. IOW, "proof" as a term is very relative. I believe that on matters of faith that God determines the exact level of "proof" required by each of His children. For example, some believe BECAUSE they have seen, while others believe without seeing.