[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights!

But to some, our testimonies must be thrown out in toto, because they do not rise to the level of "proof" required by some who do not believe in such phenomena. Short of a personal visit by God through a burning bush experience, I do not think that proof exists for these people in what we are talking about.

Indeed, but even God's speaking through a burning bush would not be effective to one He has not given the gift of Spiritual hearing.

IOW, it doesn't matter whether the thread is about religion, philosophy or science - when our correspondents demand physical or logical "proof" then we know the words of God are not registering in power to them - which is to say, His words are not being Spiritually heard.

Or to put it another way, the power of God is not understood by observing His miracles but rather by the hearing of the words of God.

Israel had experienced many miracles - the delivery from bondage in Egypt through mighty miracles, the parting of the Red Sea, the manna and water and so on. Even their clothes and shoes did not wear away over forty years. But they did not have the "ears to hear" - the gift of God that we have - so observing all those miracles did not avail them as we can see below and in the prophesy of the Song of Moses.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. - Deuteronomy 32:21

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. - Romans 10:19

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. - Revelation 15:3

If it were understood by observing miracles, the Egyptians would have believed.

Instead, the words of God are spirit and life - but only to those who have been given "ears to hear."

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:10-11

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:13-16

The power of God is Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God. When we convey the words of God and our testimony - we have done the very best we can do for anyone.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25

Therefore I aver that when our correspondents insist on "proof" we ought to pray in order to know whether to continue for the sake of the Lurkers or whether to go to more fertile ground.

Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. - 2 Timothy 2:14-19

After all, if our correspondents do not believe the words of God - we cannot expect them to believe our testimony.

To God be the glory!

[Quix]

VERY EXCELLENT POINTS.

Thanks for the ping.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

when our correspondents demand physical or logical "proof" then we know the words of God are not registering in power to them - which is to say, His words are not being Spiritually heard.

Or to put it another way, the power of God is not understood by observing His miracles but rather by the hearing of the words of God.

AMEN! And it sure does get tiresome at times. But that's just the way God wants it for now. One way or the other, it is all for His glory.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." -- 1 Corinthians 11:19

Even the bad stuff has its God-given purpose. Knowing that makes proclaiming the Gospel among tares easier because we're told the wheat outnumber them, if not in number than certainly in strength and purpose. Ultimately, it's a wheat field and not a tares field, although some days that fact is barely recognizable.

Your example of the Jews is exactly what Paul lamented -- they believed in one God but not in Christ, and so they were blinded to the truth, and their blindness should make us even more circumspect and grateful. So close, and yet, so far.

the words of God are spirit and life - but only to those who have been given "ears to hear."

The power of God is Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God. When we convey the words of God and our testimony - we have done the very best we can do for anyone.

AMEN!. And Paul's words from Timothy describe life perfectly and offer a perfect response to those without ears to hear and whose hearts remain stone...

"... they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers...Study to shew thyself approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth...shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his."

AMEN.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." -- John 17:17-18

If God has sent us into the world equipped with "the whole armour of God" and the "breastplate of righteousness" and "the shield of faith" and the "helmet of salvation" and the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," (Ephesians 6) what do we have to fear?

All in all, a perfect plan from the very start, from before the foundation of the world.

[hosepipe]

[ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27 ]

Indeed.. according to John 10 the ones remaining in the sheep pens are not following his voice.. which is the poinr being discussed here, I think..

The fact that there are sheep pens would make quite a sermon or homily.. Could be Jesus talked of sheep pens because there were and would be sheep pens.. What a revelation John 10 is.. if one has the ears to hear it..

If they be sheep pens no doubt there be goat pens because there be many other pens for God seekers to self-sort into.. i.e. Buddism, Hinduism, Atheism.. etc.. What some call religion can be called "pens".. because they be many.. with shepards or goat herders for them all..

[wmfights]

Therefore I aver that when our correspondents insist on "proof" we ought to pray in order to know whether to continue for the sake of the Lurkers or whether to go to more fertile ground.

Please don't move on to more fertile grounds to quickly. I have had wonderful discussions open up with my teenage sons and their friends after I've had them read some of these threads. I've had the opportunity to buy Bibles for some of those friends and to take them to church with us. IOW, you never know who the lurkers are and who is hearing THE GOSPEL for the first time.

My experience with the youth today is that the easiest way to reach them and get them to think about something is through the internet.

[Forest Keeper]

Outstanding post, AG! :)

Israel had experienced many miracles - the delivery from bondage in Egypt through mighty miracles, the parting of the Red Sea, the manna and water and so on. Even their clothes and shoes did not wear away over forty years. But they did not have the "ears to hear" - the gift of God that we have - so observing all those miracles did not avail them as we can see below and in the prophesy of the Song of Moses.

Yes indeed. Even many who witnessed the miracles of Christ did not believe. God must ready the person to understand. About those who did witness but did not believe I am sure we have all thought "what was the matter with them?". But then we have only to look at ourselves, with all of our advantages, and see when we have not believed or been faithful. We are the same.

The power of God is Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God. When we convey the words of God and our testimony - we have done the very best we can do for anyone.

AMEN! That's all our job is. It is God alone Who saves souls. We never fail nor succeed when it comes to the salvation of another. But it is always such a blessing when God lets us watch Him work. :)