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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; wmfights; MarkBsnr; ...
Those who believe means all those believe, not some, HD.

No, "those who believe" does not mean "all who believe". It means some. It would be like me saying "Those who smoke will get lung cancer." That doesn't mean I'm saying everyone who smokes is going to get lung cancer.

No but it makes it very clear that the ones who believe and are baptized shall be saved.

One who BELIEVE and is baptized SHALL be saved.

It also makes it clear that those who are baptized but do not believe will not be. This of course flies in the face of all the other "salvational formulas" one finds all over the NT.

You've changed the text. It doesn't say that those who are baptized but do not believe. Mark 16:16 states that those who do not believe will not be saved. That to is true. There are the people who believe (the elect) and the people who don't believe (the reprobates). This IS consistent with the "salvational formulas". What is clearly missing from the text is that you HAVE to be baptized in order to be saved.

Bear in mind that Calvinists do not subscribe to what is now the standard belief among most Protestants, that you must exercise your faith (take a leap of faith) in order to be saved. This is no more than Catholic doctrine which is a works oriented doctrine-you have to do something. It is God who brings us to repentance and gives us our faith.

2,075 posted on 02/14/2008 5:01:42 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; stfassisi; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; wmfights; MarkBsnr
No, "those who believe" does not mean "all who believe". It means some. It would be like me saying "Those who smoke will get lung cancer."

Then we can say that some of those who believe will be saved and some won't.

One who BELIEVE and is baptized SHALL be saved

No, HD, this is a basic English comprehension issue: and is conditional; it binds the words before and after. It means that one without the other is not true. It's technical (grammatical) term is conjunction. It joins coordinate words. The phrase above means that there are two conditions that are operative in order to be saved (according to Mark): belief (faith) and baptism.

You've changed the text. It doesn't say that those who are baptized but do not believe. Mark 16:16 states that those who do not believe will not be saved.

I haven't changed anything, HD. In context of the previous verse, if you don't believe you won't be saved, regardless if you are baptized or not. But if you do believe, you must be baptized as well in order to be saved (according to Mark).

The Great Commission supports Mark's formula: the disciples are to teach (so that many can believe) and baptize them, so that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved.

This flies in the face of the "sola fide" Protestant error.

This IS consistent with the "salvational formulas".

No, it's not. Biblical "salvational formulas" range from having babies to just believing and everything in between.

What is clearly missing from the text is that you HAVE to be baptized in order to be saved

No, it says exactly what it says: according to Mark, those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who do not believe (regardless if they are baptized or not) are condemned. From which it is understood that those who believe and are not baptized are not saved. The Great Commission makes baptism mandatory along with teaching (unfortunately, it seem St. Paul didn't know Christ said that). But, again, I remind all that Matthew was an eyewitness; Mark, Luke and Paul weren't.

Bear in mind that Calvinists do not subscribe to what is now the standard belief among most Protestants, that you must exercise your faith (take a leap of faith) in order to be saved

Protestant deformation otherwise known as Calvinism would object to this (and not without a precedent). Being a Christian is reflected in how you live, imitating Christ as much as possible. 

2,093 posted on 02/14/2008 8:29:25 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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