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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Quix; HarleyD
Beautifully said, thank you.

Your post reminds me of something from the great Reformed theologian, Herman Bavinck.

A dogma is not based on the results of any historical-critical research but only on the witness of God, on the self-testimony of Holy Scripture. A Christian believes, not because everything in life reveals the love of God, but rather despite everything that raises doubt.

In scripture too there is much that raises doubt. All believers know from experience that this is true. Those who engage in biblical criticism frequently talk as if simple church people know nothing about the objections that are advanced against Scripture and are insensitive to the difficulty of continuing to believe in Scripture. But that is a false picture. Certainly, simple Christians do not know all the obstacles that science raises to belief in Scripture. But they do to a greater or lesser degree know the hard struggle fought both in head and heart against Scripture.

There is not a single Christian who has not in his or her own way learned to know the antithesis between the “wisdom of the world” and “the foolishness of God.” It is one and the same battle, an ever-continuing battle, which has to be waged by all Christians, learned or unlearned, to “take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:5).

Here on earth no one ever rises above that Battle. Throughout the whole domain of faith, there remain “crosses” (cruces) that have to be overcome. There is no faith without struggle. To believe is to struggle, to struggle against the appearance of things. As long as people still believe in anything, their belief is challenged from all directions. No modern believer is spared from this either. Thus for those who in childlike faith subject themselves to Scripture, there still remain more than enough objections. These need not be disguised.

Their are intellectual problems (cruces) in Scripture that cannot be ignored and that will probably never be resolved. But these difficulties, which Scripture itself presents against its own inspiration, are in large part not recent discoveries of our century. They have been known at all times. Nevertheless, Jesus and the apostles, Athanasius and Augustine, Thomas and Bonaventure, Luther and Calvin, and Christians of all churches have down the centuries confessed and recognized Scripture as the word of God. Those who want to delay belief in Scripture till all the objections have been cleared up and all the contradictions have been resolved will never arrive at faith. “For who hopes for what he sees?” [Rom. 8:24]. Jesus calls blessed those who have not seen and yet believe [John 20:29].


2,031 posted on 02/13/2008 7:59:53 PM PST by the_conscience ('The human mind is a perpetual forge of idols'.)
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To: the_conscience
Thank you for sharing that excerpt!
2,037 posted on 02/13/2008 10:10:35 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: the_conscience
“”A dogma is not based on the results of any historical-critical research but only on the witness of God, on the self-testimony of Holy Scripture. A Christian believes, not because everything in life reveals the love of God, but rather despite everything that raises doubt.””

I certainly don’t agree with Herman Bavinck on the “critical research”

Just because something becomes a dogma does not mean it was not overwhelmingly believed up until that point.

A dogma in many cases makes things concrete to shut the door on heretical beliefs as they start to gain force.

Take the dogma of the Divinity of Christ for instance.
When did the Church declare that Jesus was God as dogma? At the council of Nicea in 325 AD. Nearly 300 years after Christ’s death, correct? Does that mean that the Church DID NOT already believe this? Of course it did! Jesus was worshiped during the liturgy. People prayed to Him during their daily prayers and through their actions. The Church overwhelmingly already KNEW that Jesus was God.

The Church guided by the Holy Spirit needed to shut the door on the Arian heretics, to make concrete, so that the denial of Christ’s Divinity would not spread into the Church

Historical critical research does show us the early Christians believed Christ is God. Thus the importance of oral and written tradition

Examples

“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.” Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).

“For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).

“We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.” Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 21 (c. A.D. 175).

“God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but inasmuch as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him.” Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 5 (c. A.D. 175).

We can trace the sinlessness of Mary back also

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

2,061 posted on 02/14/2008 11:13:13 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: the_conscience
HERMAN BAVINCK: A Christian believes, not because everything in life reveals the love of God, but rather despite everything that raises doubt...

There is not a single Christian who has not in his or her own way learned to know the antithesis between the "wisdom of the world" and "the foolishness of God." It is one and the same battle, an ever-continuing battle, which has to be waged by all Christians, learned or unlearned, to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5). Here on earth no one ever rises above that Battle...

Amen. "Every thought captive."

"Man never achieves a clear knowledge of himself unless he has first looked upon God's face, and then descends from contemplating Him to scrutinize himself." -- John Calvin

2,077 posted on 02/14/2008 5:23:33 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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