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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Mad Dawg; the_conscience; wmfights; ...
[Mark to Irish:] Maybe that is something that perpetuates the misunderstanding of this works-based salvation that we are accused of. We are not works based, but we are commanded to do.

Ah, but when we look at it carefully, I think you really DO have a works-based model. IMHO, Kosta has been the most open and honest about it, calling it such. (However, in no way has he ever promoted anything like the full Pelagian view.) Here is my current understanding of the Apostolic view, and please correct me if I am wrong:

If a good Christian decides to use his free will to perform good works then he will be saved. However, if a good Christian uses his free will and decides not to do good works, then he is damned. God will examine all the good Christians and judge them based on the merit of their good works, whether in quantity or quality, or by some other measure. Whatever God's threshold is, those who have done "enough" will see Heaven, and those who haven't done enough, regardless of faith, will be sent to the down escalator.

If this is basically correct, then I really see this as a works-based salvation model. I acknowledge that you believe that grace is indispensable for salvation, however, if you believe that works and faith are separate entities, then works is a BASE, by itself, for your salvation. So for you, it would be both grace-based AND works-based.

We obviously don't see it that way at all. We see works as the CERTAIN fruit of any true faith. Now, James clearly says that faith without works is dead. We think he was referring to a false faith that never truly was. I think the Apostolic view is that he referred to a true faith in which the person made a bad decision to not do enough works. He did not use his free will to fulfill the BASE requirements for salvation.

If I have been fair enough, I hope you can see why we use terms like "works-based salvation" with you all. I think most Reformers around here know that this is not the same as full Pelagianism. Your side has made it clear that you believe that without grace no one is saved. We disagree on whether works are actually a part of faith itself, or if it is something separate that must be decided upon by a true believer. We don't think true believers have anything to decide because it is already a part of them:

2 Cor 5:17 : Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

1,608 posted on 02/08/2008 7:13:01 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; the_conscience; wmfights; ...
Thank you so very much for your graciously composed essay-post!

If I have been fair enough, I hope you can see why we use terms like "works-based salvation" with you all. I think most Reformers around here know that this is not the same as full Pelagianism. Your side has made it clear that you believe that without grace no one is saved. We disagree on whether works are actually a part of faith itself, or if it is something separate that must be decided upon by a true believer. We don't think true believers have anything to decide because it is already a part of them:

2 Cor 5:17 : Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Very well said. Beautiful Scripture!

As I have mentioned before, about half of my family is Catholic. And the entire family is Christian.

And I have noticed among my Catholic relatives the phenomenon of uncertainty. It seems to result from a sense of separate-from-God responsibility for doing good works and a lingering doubt that anything they could do would be good enough.

The uncertainty was particularly evident when my oldest brother, a Catholic, weighed anchor from this mortal life. The survivors who were Catholic were more troubled by his passing.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:25-30

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. - John 14:1-3

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. - Philippians 4:4

Marantha, Jesus!

1,615 posted on 02/08/2008 9:13:21 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Forest Keeper

***If a good Christian decides to use his free will to perform good works then he will be saved. However, if a good Christian uses his free will and decides not to do good works, then he is damned. God will examine all the good Christians and judge them based on the merit of their good works, whether in quantity or quality, or by some other measure. Whatever God’s threshold is, those who have done “enough” will see Heaven, and those who haven’t done enough, regardless of faith, will be sent to the down escalator.***

Grace gets us to the point where we are able to walk the Way. Else, we do not even get to be considered. In final answer, though, I will give you Matt 25:

31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
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and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
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He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
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For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
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naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
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Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
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When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
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And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
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Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
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a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
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Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
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He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
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And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And so, in a way, you are sort of right.

But I ask of the Reformed, though, what these verses mean to them. If deeds are not important, then why are they Judged? And why does God tell us that if we don’t then we’ll go off to eternal punishment?


1,649 posted on 02/08/2008 1:54:51 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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