And therein lies the problem with some of these “Church communities”, they are almost gnostic in their requirement for secret knowledge of scripture.
It appears that
The RC edifices
That WHEN an RC edifice believer is involved, it MUST be HOLY SPIRIT operating.
But when a NON-RC edifice is involved, it MUST be gnosticism.
I'm certain Holy Spirit is underwhelmed with such labeling.
I have no trouble believing that the RC priest upthread characterized as 'reading folks mail' during confession did so by Holy Spirit.
I have known a number of people in my life who've done so. Pastor Julia Coleman of Phoenix operates in gifts of Holy Spirit in a similar fashion. She's a precious elderly wirey black lady--full of love yet often minces no words. And, by God's Grace, on more than a few occasions, I've functioned in a similar fashion in counseling and other situations. Holy Spirit has been an incaluably constructive redemptive Agent in such situations--many times saving many hours of work.
I'll not be holding my breath waiting for comparable graciousness from the RC edifice side about Prottys full of Holy Spirit authentically operating in such giftedness. The RC edifice construction on spiritual pseudo-reality is
Their rules or the highway.
Their rules or hell.
Their fantasies or perdition.
Their politics or aposticism.
Their dogma or "error."
Their RUBBER HISTORIES or "lies" [which being interpreted = TRUTH uncomfortable to the magicsterical politicians].
Their RUBBER BIBLES or 'inaccurate translations/language/copying/versions' according to the magicsterical politicians.
Their RUBBER DICTIONARIES or 'lies,' 'inaccurate linguistic terms.'
Welllll, quite a number of us are underwhelmed with the RC edifice double standard. We don't find the God of the UnRubberized Bible to be a God of double standards.
I have persistently been rather egalitarian in talking about the idolatries of all religious groups. Such a stance of mine has been wholesale ignored by the RC edifice reps.
I've noted as above that I've known a number of RC folks to be authentic believers operating in the love and Spirit of The Lord Jesus. Such a perspective and conviction has been wholesale ignored by the RC edifice reps.
My fiercest satire--actually--virtually all of my satire and stimilar writing styles have been IN RESPONSE to outrageousness on the side of the RC reps hereon. That's been conveniently wholesale ignored.
Thankfully, God knows and understands and is keeping His own score, His way, according to His priorities. I can rest comfortably in that every night.
Both RC edifice and Protty camps reside wholesale in extremely different RELIGIOUS worlds and therefore, largely in different spiritual worlds according to their own very distorted, selective perception constructions on reality.
It is clear to me, from Scripture and my own exprience, that the Protty construction accounts for the largest number of factual data points and the RC edifice construction on reality displays the largest number of UNBIBLICAL, UNTRUE, IDOLATROUS, BLASPHEMOUS data points.
Of course the RC edifice magicsterical and reps are not going to roll over and play dead on such matters any more than we on the Protty side are going to.
Probably within a scant few years, God will have moved the sweep of history forward so dramatically and starkly differently that none of the above will matter very significantly because:
1. THOSE WHO TRULY LOVE GOD AND LOVE ALL GOD LOVES WILL HAVE MOVED ON BEYOND SUCH WATER PISTOL FIGHTS.
2. More urgent priorities of survival and miraculous ministry as very directed agents of Holy Spirit will consume all believer's waking moments.
3. The laws of concern will NOT be ARE YOU A KOSHER RC MAGICSTERICAL REP MARCHING STRICTLY TO ROME'S CONSTRUCTION ON REALITY AD NAUSEAUM VS A STRICTLY CALVINIST, PENTECOSTAL, . . . REP MARCHING STRICTLY TO THAT CONSTRUCTION ON REALITY AD NAUSEAUM.
4. The laws of concern will be DO YOU LOVE GOD OVERWHELMINGLY ABOVE ALL ELSE; ARE YOU IN HIS LOVING SERVICE ONLY, TOTALLY, ABOVE ALL ELSE? Nothing else will matter.
5. Holy Spirit will instantly vet individuals coming in and out of one's local arena of association. Those insensitive (i.e. deaf or hard of hearing to the still small voice of The Lord) to such Holy Spirit vetting will be at a decided disadvantage and many will leave this life prematurely with less fruit than they otherwise could have had.
6. Until then, some of us will continue to engage in the dubious activity of water pistol fights (since the more graphic phrasing is verbotten on the Rel forum). From time to time, some of us will have MORE loving, spiritual, altruistic goals than we will have at other times. Some of us will be more ego driven, turf driven, pride driven than at other times. Some of us will pat ourselves and our cohorts on the back for being smart enough to have fallen into God's graciousness about facts and truth than we will at other times. Some lurkers will learn a lot of truth. Some will walk away shaking their heads at the idea that ANY of us are Christian. Some will be thrilled that their team scored some "points" and some will be outraged at the 'points' and style of the other side.
The sadistic abuse accusation is an interesting one. Perhaps it deserves it's own thread some time. But for now, a few comments.
1. The RC edifice has been as fiercely abusive in spots as the Protty side has ever been.
2. I wish someone else were saying the following . . . but it tends to appear . . . that the major outrage that the RC edifice side has in terms of fierce, satirical etc. styles and posts . . . is that . . . the RC edifice side has had a lot of trouble raising up reps of sufficient starkly vivid fierce fiesty cleverness to routinely counter that from the Protty side. So, the best thing they can do is to label all such as SADISTIC ABUSE. Very tidy. Very powerful. Very silly hogwash.
3. No side has a monopoly on abusive words in this arena. No side has a monopoly on harshness. No side has a monopoly on saintliness. No side has a monopoly on 100% of absolute Truth.
4. God Himself has made certain of that. WE ALL SEE THROUGH THE GLASS DARKLY. EVERY INDIVIDUAL AND EVERY GROUP.
5. God will not have vain glorious pontificators vaunting themselves above the station He has assigned for them . . . nor above all other groups. Not His script.
6. He is gleaning, sieving, sifting out the folks who LOVE HIM OVERWHELMINGLY ABOVE ALL ELSE AND WHO FROM THAT LOVE, FIERCELY LOVE THOSE HE DIRECTS THEM TO LOVE--more or less all He brings across their paths.
7. When HE IS DONE, there will be NO other groups. There will be NO "I'm of Appolos!" "I'm of Paul!" "I'm of Jesus Christ!" CHRIST'S UNITY OF BLOOD BROTHERHOOD IN HIS BLOOD AND IN HIS SPIRIT !!!!WILL REIGN!!!! OVER ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS AND DISTINCTIVES which, will then, have been washed away as chaff or become decorative embellishments in inconsequential but attractive 'facets of the diamond' sorts of ways.
8. ALL reps of ALL magicstericals who cling to the distinctives of their group's magicsterical pontifications as their salvation and raison d'etra . . . will be left out in the cold . . . without oil . . . without an argument . . . without a leg to stand on . . . without hope.
This warning from The Lord is for all of us.
***It is clear to me, from Scripture and my own exprience, that the Protty construction accounts for the largest number of factual data points and the RC edifice construction on reality displays the largest number of UNBIBLICAL, UNTRUE, IDOLATROUS, BLASPHEMOUS data points. ***
In other words, it is your opinion.
***I’ll not be holding my breath waiting for comparable graciousness from the RC edifice side about Prottys full of Holy Spirit authentically operating in such giftedness.***
Never said that Holy Spirit doesn’t. We just see so many obviously false claims that we get a little sceptical.
***It appears that The RC edifices ASSUMES That WHEN an RC edifice believer is involved, it MUST be HOLY SPIRIT operating. ***
Nope. Many Catholics do very evil things. When Catholics claim something involving the Holy Spirit, the Church puts a lot of investigation together before anything is declared.
***4. The laws of concern will be DO YOU LOVE GOD OVERWHELMINGLY ABOVE ALL ELSE; ARE YOU IN HIS LOVING SERVICE ONLY, TOTALLY, ABOVE ALL ELSE? Nothing else will matter. ***
The First Commandment of Jesus.
***2. I wish someone else were saying the following . . . but it tends to appear . . . that the major outrage that the RC edifice side has in terms of fierce, satirical etc. styles and posts . . . is that . . . the RC edifice side has had a lot of trouble raising up reps of sufficient starkly vivid fierce fiesty cleverness to routinely counter that from the Protty side. ***
My impression is the exact opposite. Bleak, austere and impoverished theologies tend to lead to bleak, auster and impoverished dialogue.
***This warning from The Lord is for all of us. ***
Nice to see that your ability to speak for the Lord hasn’t waned over time.
Those of us who do not consider our tantrums to be gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, who think that seeking God is more than consulting one's affections and one's Bible, and who prefer focusing on God and His will to attracting attention to ourselves also tend to think that thoughtful examination of the issues beats name-calling and abuse, and reason is more useful than satire.
When people persist in behavior which does not accomplish what they profess to desire, then they probably desire something else or they can't properly evaluate the results of their actions, or there are forces driving them of which they are only partially aware and have an inadequate understanding.
Consulting affections and believing uncritically the propositions they encourage us to make leads to sloppy thought. For example, when she was very little, my daughter described the doctor who caused her pain as "stupid." That's understandable in a 4 year old. In an adult, it's remarkable.
When adults of whatever persuasion hold fierceness and feisty-ness above the listed fruits of the Spirit, when they persist in behavior which they have been advised is painful and offensive and which, while attracting support from those with whom they agree seems, at best, to confuse those whom they claim to be seeking to benefit in some way, it is not unreasonable to wonder what is going on or to doubt the professions of those indulging in the behaviors.
When a group of adults, of varying religious persuasions, seem to think that they will change hearts by abusing them, well, IMHO we're in the realm of pathology. When there are obvious incidents of perseveration and malleable memory, then we're in the area of deeper pathology. When some kinds of misinterpretation, seemingly willful, lead first to disparaging the person making the claims and then to cries of injury and protest and expressions of contempt, those data are not neutral but tilt toward confirmation of the conjecture.
And when HIGHLY imprecise and prejudicial remarks are made to the effect that noticing and characterizing behavior is being "judgmental" and that PDs are one step below axe murderers, then there is more confirmation of the observations and resultant conjectures.
Appeals are that patience and careful work are likely to be the only approaches that will lead to getting close enough to one another to make effective debate possible. When those appeals are rejected in favor of continuing the strife with the old methods of overgeneralizing, tendentious characterization, and insult, and when that ineffective approach is followed by tirades of abuse and seemingly mantic prophecy, the case is strengthened.
Dominus Iesus is readily available on the Internet. Those who read it looking for something to justify their feeling of being aggrieved will be able to tell themselves they found what they sought.
Those however, who read it to learn what the Catholic Church believes will find that the Church not only is entirely open to the possibility of wiry black ladies inspired by the Holy Spirit of God and speaking SOME (not all) truth, but also praises God for beginning so great a work in her.
Rorschachs are everywhere, and half of what people see and read they could see and read with their eyes closed, if they had, or even desired, any insight.
May God sanctify your suffering and use it to gain further access to your heart and finally to unite your heart more closely to His.
Great post.
Of a Truth, there is only one Great Commandment: to love God with all our heart and soul and mind. (Matthew 22:37-38)
If we miss that one, nothing else we do will matter as the church of Ephesus discovered:
Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. – Revelation 2:1-5
Thank you Quix for post #1267. Well put.