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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

***History shows the RCC didn’t arise until the 4th century ***

Which history? The history with which I am familiar firmly places Peter and Paul within the Church; and Peter’s successors in an unbroken line to today. Do you possess a different history?

***along the way, adopted doctrines started by those she considered heretics ***

Would it be possible for you to list the heretics, the heresies, and the adopted doctrines?

***it’s not accurate to say the reformed churches split off from the RCC, for the church founded by Christ on Christ with the Apostles was not the RCC - but church on grace rather than works. The name “reformed” indeed arose in response to the RCC***

The Theses nailed up by Luther were submitted along with the term “Protestant”. The Reformed were actually in response to the novel theologies of Luther.

***but many of the people of the reform movement never submitted to the rule of the popes.***

Really. Do you have names?


1,247 posted on 02/04/2008 7:29:28 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Here’s one well documented review of early history that shows the “rise of the machine” known as what I call the RCC - http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/hop/view.cgi?book=1&chapter=3

Chapter 5 of this book documents by name several Italian bishops who did not accept key erroneous RCC doctrines. Here’s an example:

To come to the sixth century, we find Laurentius, Bishop of Milan, holding that the penitence of the heart, without the absolution of a priest, suffices for pardon; and in the end of the same century (A.D. 590) we find the bishops of Italy and of the Grisons, to the number of nine, rejecting the communion of the Pope, as a heretic, so little then was the infallibility believed in, or the Roman supremacy acknowledged. [8] In the seventh century we find Mansuetus, Bishop of Milan, declaring that the whole faith of the Church is contained in the Apostle’s Creed; from which it is evident that he did not regard as necessary to salvation the additions which Rome had then begun to make, and the many she has since appended to the apostolic doctrine. The Ambrosian Liturgy, which, as we have said, continues to be used in the diocese of Milan, is a monument to the comparative purity of the faith and worship of the early Churches of Lombardy.

From chapter 11:

Transubstantiation, as we have already shown, was invented by the monk Paschasius Radbertus in the ninth century; it came into England in the train of William the Conqueror and his Anglo-Norman priests; it was zealously preached by Lanfranc, a Benedictine monk and Abbot of St. Stephen of Caen in Normandy, [1] who was raised to the See of Canterbury under William; and from the time of Lanfranc to the days of Wicliffe this tenet was received by the Anglo-Norman clergy of England. [2] It was hardly to be expected that they would very narrowly or critically examine the foundations of a doctrine which contributed so greatly to their power; and as regards the laity of those days, it was enough for them if they had the word of the Church that this doctrine was true.


1,284 posted on 02/05/2008 6:22:05 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I failed to include a reply to the question of Mary.

From a different source:

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (”Catechism” 490-492).

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX declared the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. After defining the dogma, the Pope said that if any person dares to “think otherwise than as has been defined by us” they thereby shipwreck their faith, are cut off from the Church, and stand condemned because of it. The Pope went on to say that if any person says, or writes, or in any other way outwardly expresses “the errors he thinks in his heart,” then they thereby “subject themselves to the penalties established by law”. (Note 25 gives a link to this papal bull. You can read it for yourself.)

Note 13. William Webster, “The Church of Rome at the Bar of History,” pages 72-77.

Note 25. “Ineffabilis Deus” (“Apostolic Constitution on the Immaculate Conception”). Encyclical of Pope Pius IX issued December 8, 1854. Near the end of this papal bull there is a section entitled “The Definition”. The statements that I described are in the last paragraph of that section. You can read this encyclical online. If the following links don’t work, then do an Internet search for “Ineffabilis Deus”.

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/pi09id.htm
http://www.geocities.com/papalencyclicals/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

ASSUMPTION — At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (”assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (”Catechism” 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn’t John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)

Note 15. William Webster, pages 81-85.

And regarding the pope, for good measure:

The Early Fathers, and the theologians and canon lawyers of the Middle Ages, never taught that the bishops or the Pope were infallible. This is demonstrated by the fact that in 680 A.D. the Sixth Ecumenical Council condemned a pope as a heretic. It was not until the fourteenth century that the theory of infallibility began to emerge. With the development of this theory came a change in the interpretation of some biblical passages. (Note 21)

The history of the early Church shows that the Bishop of Rome was considered to be just another bishop. For example, Pope Gregory (590-604 A.D.) explicitly stated that all of the bishops were equal. He specifically repudiated the idea that any one bishop could be the supreme ruler of the Church. (Note 22)

Note 21. William Webster, pages 34-55.
Note 22. William Webster, pages 56-63.


1,286 posted on 02/05/2008 6:33:50 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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