Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
You've never been in a daycare when a 2 year old wacks another over the head for taking his truck. How about an infant who cries because they want their diaper changed? No, kids may be cute but they are not innocent.
LOL, that's Judaism, HD. Where does Christ teach that! We are Christians, right?
I know that you don't hold any store in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean the Church doesn't.
Why? So that we can tell Christ, "You did not choose us be we chose You?" That is, after all, what you are saying. But that is not how it works. Man is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness; it is an either/or type of deal. Only our Lord can make us a slave to righteousness.
Nothing happened until Mary gave her consent.
Sounds like consent to me. Christian God does not rape.
Actually, I believe the scriptures state, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;..." 1Co 1:27 . The gospel is foolishness to the world so it would be impossible for us to try to make a "foolish" decision. At least we wouldn't want to own up to it. :O)
Historical evidence shows early Christianity split between Peter and Paul. The two didn't get along theologically. I doubt that +Peter learned any Greek from +Paul. +Paul was in present-day Turkey and Greece. Peter was nowhere near.
The Jews living in Asia Minor and Greece when +Paul was there were not exiles. There were exiles when wide-spread anti-Christian persecutions began at the end of the 1st century. The Cappadocian Christians dug up a whole city in the mountains where they were hiding.
The Greek text of 1 Peter uses the word διασπορᾶς (diasporas), from which the English word "diaspora" is derived, which means scattering, exile. It is the same word used in the Greek Bible for the Babylonian exile of the Jews.
Surely you don't mean to imply that the Jews who left Israel 500 BC were still "exiles" in Alexandria and Cappadocia! The new exiles 1 Peter speaks of are those contemporary of the author's time.
And when +Peter was alive (c 65 AD) there was no exile#151;yet! The Temple was to stand another 5 years at the time of +Peter's martyrdom. The Jews began to leave Palestine after the destruction of the Temple (70 AD).
But, I agree with Kolo, it doesn't matter to me who wrote it. 1 Pet was chosen by the Church as scripture. That means that in it is God's message, according to the teaching of Christ.
Kolo says (#5058) The Greek [of 1 Peter] is beautiful. That alone makes me doubt that the Apostle Peter wrote it. Add to it Kosta's idea that the author is writing to people fleeing a persecution and it seems even less likely that +Peter is the author. Of course, to me that makes little difference
Indeed, it is ranked higher than that of +Paul's koine Greek! But, as you say, it makes very little difference if +Peter wrote it or not. The Church found it to be scripture because it contains God's message according to the teaching of our Lord.
If you want to talk philosophy, do not do it on a religion thread, and frankly, I have more important stuff to think about that calvinist fantasies.
If you want to discuss Christian beliefs, a scripture reference would be a good start. Where did Christ teach that we are His slaves?
Of course it does. God created man sovereign on earth. You don't think God has an image (face), save for the humanity of Christ.
IF personality is NOT included in that idea, then it means nothing
No, it has nothing do with the personality; it has to do with the dominion.
But He also created man in His likeness, that is capable of mercy, wisdom, moral prudence, so that we can govern this dominion justly and prudently and morally upright, imitating God in His dominion.
The Bible differentiates the image and the likeness. This is obvious in Hebrew as well as in Greek; the "image" being more symbolic represntation [Greek: eikona, an icon], and "likeness"[Gr. homoiosis, similitidue, from the root homoi, similarly].
God wanted to kill Moses at one point. Was this preodained too? Does God preodain getting frustrated too? You are reading narratives as if they are documentaries.
What was the purpose of these "negotiations?" Since they changed nothing that God already did predesitne, as uou observe, they were empty rituals. They were not "negotations" but reading of the rights.
How so? In Orthodoxy, the fear of the Lord is the awe when we approach Him at the chalice.
The love comes from His goodness and mercy for us undeserving sinners.
The Old Testament God (with some exceptions, such as in genesis) does not exhibit the characteristics of Christ but of Zeus.
Kosta: God had to prove to them that he is the Lord by showing them what he can do to those who don't obey him.
FK: God did not HAVE to prove anything to anyone. He ordained all that happened.
Well, apparently, the OT God did not just zap Hebrews' hearts and make them believe! He found it necessary to do all sorts of tricks (i.e. changing the staff into a snake and back!) to convince the unbelieving Hebrews that He is Lord indeed.
Fully compatible, no. Same God, yes. The difference stems from what the writers of the Old Testament experienced as God and Christ's Incarnation showing a strikingly different God. One more example that "inner voices" do not provide full revelation.
No, Pelagius is accused of teaching that man does not need Baptism.
If grace is obtained through Baptism, then man is the one who can decide on God's grace. Man is the driver.
No. Baptism is a sacrament. As such, it is accomplished through the work of the Holy Spirit.
I think we have a definitional problem here (seems to be a common trend among the Reformed for some reason). You are saying that an infant, crying because he is burning from a wet diaper, is committing sin???? Good Lord!
Kosta: LOL, that's Judaism, HD. Where does Christ teach that! We are Christians, right?
HD: I know that you don't hold any store in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean the Church doesn't.
That's not answering my question. Christians don't believe everything they read in the Old Testament. We don't believe that killing animals and making a bloody mess atones for our sins. It has nothing to do with holding any store in the Old Testament. It's just plain fact that we don't believe and do everything we find in that Book.
I think I explained why in the post, HD. If we have no will of our own then someone is making our choices for us.
Is someone making your choices, HD? And if so, how would you know?
Actually, the Flood was God's doing. So, are you saying that what Hitler did was also God's doing? Or was Hitler doing something contrary to God's will, yet somehow it was still God's will?
PS I doubt that there were millions of people on earth in those days...so your remark that the Flood was "an almost infinitely greater human catastrophe" then Hitler (the evil of Holocaust) is somewhat bewildering, if not repulsive.
God was the creator of Hitler, but not his evil. God doesn't have evil to instill
He created Hitler so that Hitler would be evil, yet God somehow has nothing to do with it? Scrambling, hey? I make a robot that will shoot anything on sight. The robot has no choice or say about this. Is it I, the maker, who is the cause of what robot does, or is it the robot?
Kosta: Was Hitler simply doing God's will?
FK: On a single, narrow level "yes", but NOT in obedience
Oh, but was it disobedience? Was not Hitler doing exactly what God wanted him to do? How can that be disobedience?"
The revelation God gives us is plenty enough to "know" Him as He designed us to know Him. Your earlier comparison to our pets "knowing" us is no where close to the same thing
How so? They pick up on our habits and movements and know how to anticipate and how to get our attention and so on. In fact they communicate with us on their level.
They still don't understand why we do things. They have no concept of work, finances, or where the food comes from. The know their home and their family and they try their best to live according to our rules because they really have no other choice. They don't understand why we do things; they simply obey. Yet they feel loved, and face.
LOL! No, that isn't what we teach, that's what you want to hear. I suppose the Apostolic God just got caught with His pants down when Adam and Eve decided to sin. :)
You don't even pray on your own, but because God predestined you to pray.
My DESIRE is not to do anything without God, i.e., on my own.
Amen!
"I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah." -- Psalm 61:4
Most Roman Catholics, and virtually all Bible-believing Protestants believe in the concept of original sin. Reformers clarify with the further concept of total depravity. I went no further than this concept. If you believe that all men are born "basically good", then I will just have to wish you the best of luck with that. When I look at the real world I don't see that at all. Your side relies on man's inner goodness, and we rely on God. Paul teaches total depravity clearly, which I surmise is a great reason why Apostolics don't like Paul.
:) Thanks for the pic. He doesn't look happy at all. :)
I have no idea if there are babies in hell. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that God spares abortion victims, miscarriages, etc., however, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. We can't know for certain who they are, as Harley said.
I have no idea what your inference is about babies in hell somehow helping to save the elect. I'll take that as simply gratuitous.
Why would God offer human sacrifice of an innocent child to the devil?
He wouldn't. I have no idea why you would ask or what connection you are attempting to draw with Reformed theology. There is none.
John Calvin said "there are babies a span long in hell". Do you actually believe this?
I don't know. I am with Harley in being unfamiliar with that particular quote. I would have to know the context before commenting further.
” Christians don’t believe everything they read in the Old Testament. We don’t believe that killing animals and making a bloody mess atones for our sins. It has nothing to do with holding any store in the Old Testament. It’s just plain fact that we don’t believe and do everything we find in that Book”
Oh please state that you are speaking for yourself and not all Christians ...I for one believe all the Bible..front to back , cover to cover...we no longer kill animals to atone for sin because CHRIST made the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for our sins.
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