Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

I'm jumping in tentatively here as this is a good discussion you guys have going and I don't want to upset the flow so to speak.

"Hey people, The only reason you're feeling bad about losing your child is that you don't think properly. After all, Scripture says, '... as he thinketh in his heart, so he is.' So chin up. Your suffering at the loss of your child is just faithlessness."

Surely you would agree that a persons world-view would effect (to some degree at least) their suffering?

In the cold hard light of day,suffering (as in..."we do not despair as those who have no hope)at the loss of a child is faithlessness.

God is transforming us by the renewing of our minds so that we are able to stand in any circumstance.

God bless

Surely you would agree that a persons world-view would effect (to some degree at least) their suffering?

Certainly I would agree. Someone once said he rejoiced in his sufferings (Col 1:24). It is important to me that he didn't say he wasn't suffering.

But the counter-thesis posed against mine was that suffering was the of having the wrong attitude, more or less, something like that. It was against that that I will argue vigorously. A 16 month old infant is terrified at the repeated jabs in the gut of a bout of myoclonic seizures and the parents are aching for her fear and their own? I dare you to tell the three of them it's because they thought life was painful, that their daughter's brain is in peril.

Kosta: Judaism did not use musical insturments in the liturgy,...

IT: According to the Bible, there were temple musicians as well as a temple choir. Where did you get your information?

Irish, every word I write is there for a reason...it says in the liturgy. Of course, to a Reformed Protestant a liturgy means nothing and a temple is like a "church," right? No, it isn't. The liturgy was and is done in the synogogues and churches. The temple was for sacrifical rituals. The Jewish sacrificial rituals were accompanied by musical instruments, as the public looked on. In this regard, Judaism was just like another pagan religion. It was a show. And it was precisely because of the association of instruments wiht pagan worship that the early Church censored the use of muscial instruments. The earliest documents about this come from around mid seocnd century.

But while the Church is like a synagogue, is also like a temple (for Christ's bloodless sacrifice). Christian liturguical hymnology is a direct derivative of the synagogal chants. But the sacrificial offering of the Eucharist is temple-like. In order to assure that the Divine Liturgy or Mass is never confused with pagan practices, the early Church disavowed instrumental music.

The early Western Church developed beautiful hymnology better known as Gregorian chants. In the East there is equally rich hymnology that is used to this day at every Divine Liturgy.

As far as your sentences, when I see the word choir, I never think of anything other than voices. When I see the word orchestra, then I think of instruments. You had two sentences one saying choir, one saying instruments. Two completely different subjects. No straw man at all.

Irish, there are choral ensenbles, Beethoven's ninth symphony (symphonies=no singining) is called choral because there is a choir as well as insturmental music. Protestant music is instrumentla and choral. It didn't used to be in the early Presbyterian assemblies because in those days even the Protestants knew that instrumental music (which the Catholic intorduced porobably under Frankish converts' influence) was a corruption of the original church liturgucal practice (and Presbyterians consider themsleves liturgical Christians as far as I know).

So, you use every word specifically for a reason. So the next time I see you use CHOIR, I won’t think of a bunch of people singing, I will think of a choral session with voices and instruments. Choir never means singers. OK, I think I got it.

Now, what makes you think the Jews were pagans? Or did you mean by pagan, worshippers of God? Because that was what they were. God worshippers. Doing EXACTLY as God prescribed to them. God told them how to worship, they complied exactly as they could, and because they don’t worship as you do, they are pagans. And yes, they used musical instruments in their worship.

Irish: ***Man, in his natural state, has the “free will” to sin or not sin.

Kosta: We are in agreement on this, Irish. I am not sure your Reformed friends here are, but the Orthodox and Catholic most certainly are.***

Irish: I am absolutely positive that most, if not all, of my “reformed” friends agree.

I certainly agree. The comeback is always that the Reformed do not believe in free will. But you and I know that that is only from a certain perspective. What I have found is that our friends cannot or will not accept the idea that free will and God's total sovereignty (control) can exist at the same time. To them, either man is in control of everything to do with himself or God is in control and creates evil. We know that neither of those is true. God is in full control AND man has a measure of free will, depending, as you laid out.

Have you ever heard of anyone who was not tested? Everyone has moments, days, months, even years of trouble and termoil

There are some people who are just pretty darn "lucky," Irish and really have no more but an occasional ripple in their lives. Then there are those unfortunate souls who have had one bad day after a other ever since they were born. The rest of us fall somewhere inbetween.

But there is a difference between being tested and being tested! Being locked up in a basement since you can remember (as we read in some criminal cases), or starved, or beaten, or abused, and being some spoiled brat who didn't get his way is like night and day.

And then some people who undergo unpheavals, just like some who get drunk, actually become anything but saintly.

For if it were true that those who suffer the most are also those who are sanctified the most, then the world would be made up mostly of people with haloes aroubd their heads so to say. Crime would be nonexistent in poor nehborhoods. And true love and godliness would reign among such people. But in reality where there is poverty and suffering there is also little grace and transformation.

It is always those who are rather well off and who carry a lot of weight (figuratively speaking) who seem to feel they have been sanctified and blessed. Life's good after all, for the rich and famous especially.

The story in +Luke about the rich man and a poor man Lazarus reminds us that after death the injustice is reversed. Yeah, try walking on walter first.

Thank you so much for sharing your concerns and insights! And thank you, dear Running on Empty and mitch5501 for your beautiful, beautiful essay-posts!

If it weren't for this large font, I'd probably quote the entire chapter 11 of Hebrews which is a testimony of faith. Quite a few are named (Abraham, Moses, etc.) as receiving miracles upon standing by faith in the face of great challenges.

At the end, though, I find the phrase emphasized below most telling as it is applied to those who were not named, who stood in faith and mostly were not spared:

Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

Of whom the world was not worthy...

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. – Psalms 23:4

Or to put it in my words, it's not about the suffering or whether one is spared by faith or divine intervention - it's about what is in his heart. (Mark 7) Or as hosepipe is wont to say, it's about family, Whose he is.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Or again, it's not "about" this heaven and earth - it's about the next heaven and earth. (Genesis to Revelation, Alpha and Omega)

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. – Matthew 16:24-25

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7

To God be the glory!

FK: ***If you belong to the RCC, then you must also belong to the Pope. I do not belong to the Pope.***

The Pope is the servant of the servants of God. I do not belong to him either. More backwards possessive?

Nice words, but would you compare the Pope being a servant to Jesus being a servant? You obviously know where I'm going with this. :) On earth, the Pope wields the power of a king.

FK: ***I also note that many Catholics refer to “Our Mother” in a theological sense. ***

It’s only Scriptural - Our Lord giving us to Mary from the Cross. Theological nonsense, I suppose.

So, when Jesus spoke to John "Behold thy mother", He was speaking to all Christians, but when Christ gave the Great Commission He was only speaking to the Apostles and their successors? :)

FK: ...... However, under the normal course the Spirit will convert a heart and then see to it that the person HEARS the word and then believes. In either case, no works of men are done or needed, and God gets all the credit.***

The normal course? Sees to it that the person hears the word and believes? No works of men are done or needed?

All I mean by "normal course" is to exclude exceptions like abortion victims, etc. For every elect who reaches the age of reason I stand by my statement. And yes, the Holy Spirit loves His children and ushers them along to belief. Because of His love no chances are taken, else God's will is thwarted. He chose us first.

FK: ***Yes, to the extent they did not accept Him that was a part of God’s plan. God alone chooses who are to be His. In addition, I don’t think that every last man of Israel was lost, but it does seem clear that many were.***

How do you know it was God’s plan? We have every evidence that He tried sincerely to get Israel to accept Him. And failed.

Because our God is not exceptionally weak. He is omnipotent and gets everything He truly wants. If you believe that God fails, then what possible confidence can you have in any of His promises? What if He fails to keep them? Is that a chance that your side just lives with every day?

If you read the NT, it is our deeds that are judged. God decides who are the goats and the sheep based upon what we have done or not done. Once we have received the Grace of God, like the parable of the talents, it is up to us what we do with it.

Apostolics always bristle when I say that I think your salvation paradigm is merit-based, by points. Yet, we know that the parable of the talents is totally based on points. Will you now say that your salvation is also based on points earned, as you appear to say above?

Conservatism is not about freeing the individual. It is a reversion to a past state, by the way.

It depends. Conservatism is for smaller government, less taxes, and the promotion of the freedom of the individual to make as much of himself in a capitalistic economy as he can without unnecessary government interference. Liberalism is all about stopping all those things. Conservatism rewards those who work hard, and liberalism penalizes them. Conservatism is the champion of true economic freedom. Do you disagree?

On a social level, I can see where you are coming from. Conservatives do want laws against murdering innocent babies, gay marriage, child pornography, and the like, so technically that would be "less" freedom.

One of the key principles of Catholic social thought is known as the principle of subsidiarity. This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State. (emphasis added)

Well, there's the rub. On ALL matters of faith and morals, my understanding is that the Catholic view is that the ONLY ones fit are the "larger and more complex organization". On anything we discuss around here, like going to Heaven or hell, isn't that pretty much everything? :)

But there's enough room even in the explicitly social doctrine for me to be able to say with the vigor of a clear conscience, "No, Father," or "No, Bishop, I do NOT agree that the state needs to do the things you think it should do." He may harrumph at me, but I'm within my rights as a Catholic to do so.

You did give me recently a couple of examples where the clergyman was not explicitly followed. However, when decrees from the Vatican are handed down, what is a body supposed to do if he disagrees? I'm not aware that there is the option to say "no". It might be ignored anyway, but that's not the way it is supposed to work. For example, in my church any big-deal change, and most small-deal changes have to be voted on by the membership.

I really don't mean to blow this out of proportion, since it is not a hobby-horse of mine. I am looking at our respective religious governments comparatively, and I see one as being more centralized with a consolidation of supreme power, and the other as being locally autonomous. From there we have been drawing political comparisons to world governments and political ideologies.

I had an awesomely brilliant, warmly pastoral, Scripturally sound, AND theologically conclusive answer to your earlier post last night, but then I couldn't log on to FR again. The world loses another chance for universal peace. So it goes.

But, of course, I remained serene, with my accustomed equanimididdy for which I am so justly famous.

Yeah. It's a matter of parsing, which used to be a good thing until BJ Clintoon. All the sorrow and grief I saw, not only from patients and their parents but from an admirable, very dedicated, and loving hospital staff (pediatric people never seem to forget that people need love to get well) is suffering. I would say all were tempted to despair. Some were delivered and protected from succumbing to that temptation by grace operating through their trust in the Lord who swapped a Son for a slave and who turns evil into good. Others, not so much.

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