Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Interesting, how does this disprove the fact that the Chruch is what it says it is? If Constinten was so important to the Church why isn’t he a saint?
” am told that a priest at the end of a long career of parish ministry was asked what he had learned for hearing so many confessions, and he said, “few people are happy and even fewer ever grow up.”
The old priest is half right!!
What works could you do to become righteous before GOD?
John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "what shall we do,that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Any assembly that teaches you must do works to be saved is not listening to our LORD and SAVIOUR. If the assembly can't be shown how wrong they are flee.
The counter-quote is of course from the Epistle of St. James.
Show my, oh wise one, the Scripture that declares a man’s works count towards his conversion, being born again. The works of saints is for the giving of rewards in heaven, not as part of their being justified before the Judge of the universe. As Paul put it - man’s best works of righteousness are as dung.
From 1 Corinthians 3, note that he who does the good works (watering, planting) are nothing. It’s all from the One Who gives the increase:
“5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.”
“You aren’t saved by believing that Christ saved you, Dr. E. Sorry. Jesus saves, he sovereignly chooses whom he will save, period, full stop. Your beliefs about Jesus don’t earn you your free ticket into heaven any more than keeping the Mosaic law will.”
You post salvation by grace alone and then you quote Matthew 7:21-23 in the context of salvation by works. Isn’t there a contradiction in your logic?
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquit
Neither the Catholic nor the Protestant churches were innocent of bloodshed. The point is that the Catholics on this thread are not speaking like the gentlemen of yore. But you and your pals are.
That realization should sober you up. Sad, bored experience assures me that it won't, but it should.
***I know the RCC tells its members they either sink or swim by their own good works, but that’s not what the Bible teaches us. We are saved by Christ’s work on the cross alone, and those who have been covered by that work were ordained by God from before the foundation of the world for His glory, not because of their own clever decision to behave themselves.***
Then you know wrong. You have spread the wrong teachings throughout these threads and called them Catholic. You are wrong.
The pinnacle of the Gospels is the Lord’s Prayer, the Two Commandments of Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount.
The Reformed have no use for any of them, except the Lord’s Prayer as a mechanical performance without understanding what it is for.
We give you the words of Jesus and you counter with the words of men. We give you the words of the Church of Jesus and you counter with the words of Calvin. We give you the Bible and you rip out the pages you don’t like.
I see no boasting in the Lord. I see a supercilious smugness at an undeserved elevation and reward. The only thing that I see vis a vis Scripture-wise is a great negation of the premises of the Reformers.
I understand that the bulk of the Gospels needs to be removed for Reformed theology to be even considered to be valid. Thank the Lord for the complete Bible to still be out there and read.
I'm assuming you have read the entire chapter of Romans 12?
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Romans 12:20
And please don't tell us "coals of fire" is a pleasant thing as some RC asserted last year. Here is what God means by "coals of fire."
Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them." -- Psalm 18:13-14"The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Dear Lord_C:
Wishful thinking of peaceful times past only cloud one’s mind, damn the “parameters” here, and full steam ahead!
(But, seriously, this forum could use more of your attitude and sense of humor)
RD
I use “RCC” as shorthand for what you call “the Catholic Church”, as it is based in and controlled from Rome.
The eunuch was unable to discern Scripture until Phillip - a child of the living God - explained it to him. The eunuch was obviously being draw to God as part of the conversion or new birth process or else he wouldn’t have even asked or have been reading. Do you think Phillip was a member of the RCC? Reference, please.
You project onto me something that does not exist - I demonstrated no “great respect” for Malachi Martin. He was presented as a “Catholic standard” - I wouldn’t know any of those aside from the in the news. He was a reference, a foot note to the article I posted. What is in error - historical record wise - with the article? It’s purpose was not to tout any of the authors who are foot noted, but to build a case to show the RCC version of church history is a.) not the only one and b.) perhaps fraught with errors.
***All men have their works judged - those whose names are in the Book of Life get rewards in heaven according to their works of righteousness***
What rewards? If I’m extra good, do I get a Popsicle on warm days? Do I get front row seats watching the Super Bowl from on high?
“Who believes that[Scripture efficacy dependent upon consensus]?”
Catholic apologist all over the internet use the same assertion we saw here:
***where do you think you got “the bible” dear? That would be “from the Catholic Church”.***
“If you’re referring to the concept of the magesteriem, I would remind you that “who hears you hears Me”.
Getting from point A {Scripture} to point B {magesteriem} is a big leap.
***I don’t find that to be the case in my Presbyterian church. We’re quite a happy bunch, by the grace of God.***
You hide it well. I detect essence of first wife in many of your posts.
BRAVO! Too few people recognize that what the world craves as good may not be, in God’s eyes.
BRAVO! God demands all the glory and is, alone, worthy to receive all the glory.
We are judged by the work of Christ on the cross, given to us by God alone.
Christ's work saves us. Christ's obedience saves us. Christ's sacrifice saves us.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -- Romans 5:19
When the Christian dies and is judged, God has promised us He will forgive our sins because Christ took upon Himself to pay for those sins, enabling us to stand acquitted and blameless before God's perfect justice.
For those not in Christ there is His wrath. For those in Christ, there is only mercy.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness... Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. " -- Romans 4:4-5,23-25 "Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." -- Deut. 7:21
Indeed I have. The question is: are you presuming to be the ones "feeding?" Because I've got to tell you, as a non-Catholic looking in: you and your pals are doing a really fine job with "haughty" and "wise in your own sight," and a damned poor job of "feeding."
And I presume that you have read the first chapter of 1 Corinthians:
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1 Cor. 1:10-17)
St. Paul was writing about precisely the sort of activity you are engaging in. It is you who are actively working to divide the Body of Christ. Oh, yeah, you say you're working for right doctrine, but look at what you're sowing: pointless dissention.
To be more specific, you're bashing about with the kind of "knowledge" that Paul dismisses:
Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. (1 Cor. 8:1-3)
Loving God is key. Nothing else really matters. So unless you want to (falsely, and damnably) claim that Catholics don't love God, and are therefore not known by Him, perhaps your efforts might be better spent getting your own house in order.
Malachi Martin is not a Catholic standard.
The point is about Phillip is that he, as a representative of the Church, was able to teach the eunuch. Phillip was/is a member of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is what we call the Church that Jesus established. The lesson is that an individual requires that the Church teach him. The few like Paul are outside the Church and therefore outside of the normal processes of teaching that the Church engages in.
Catholic history is not fraught with errors; the purpose of the article is to create doubt, not to substantiate an alternate, true, history. It is very much like the Dan White book. Sensationalism without substance.
***We are judged by the work of Christ on the cross***
How can you be judged by what someone else has done? None of Reformed theology makes a whit of sense. Holy Spirit frogmarching the undeserved into Heaven. Legions of the undeserved shambling off to hell.
Calvinists call the holy profane and the profane holy. You people are really special.
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