Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The word got Stuck in your throat eh!..
This is a distraction. There is no doubt that Chaldean Catholics of Iraq, that bear the brunt of the lawlessness there, have practiced the same Christian faith for 2,000 years despite enormous odds.; I cannot think of a better example of Christians.
In case you need a technical answer, a Christian is one validly baptized who did not apostasize.
So baptism makes you a chrisitian?..
Apostatize(leave the message) from what?..
As a matter of fact, I'm working on that question, and I work very slowly. I wouldn't call a modern Unitarian Xtian because IF they believe in God at all, they still generally think of IHS as one heck of a good guy, ut not more than that.
Mormons are harder because as far as I can tell, they think IHS is OUR savior (or the savior of some of us), but that SEEMS to mean that He is is A savior — the savior in our cosmic neighborhood, not THE cosmic universal, only one of His kind savior.
My inclination is to have the category "Christian" be expansive and include lots of "errors" — ecclesiological, Trinitarian, Christological. I envision "Christian" as including what someone might think is a "bad Christian". It's not limited to "good Christians". And I think that for lots of reasons among which is that I wouldn't presume to say that I am a good Christian. Brilliant, charming, handsome, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound (and have you ever wondered how anyone would leap anything in MORE than a single bound?), yes. GOOD Christian? I don't think so.
But when theism or monotheism seem to be in play, I get antsy.
I ask myself,"If so-and-so cried out,'Jesus, save me!' to what extent and in what areas would he have to have the right thinking about Jesus for that cry to be 'heard'?"
That sounds all warm and fuzzy of me, I know. The cold, hard, and slick side of me asks,"What if a Jehovah's Witness, say, were outraged that there are more than 144,000 in heaven and that the Trinitarians are right? What if the Promise — which we RC's speak about as "the beatific vision" or ever increasing intimate union with God — were so unlike what he wanted that he was inclined to reject it?
My imagination is that in heaven everybody knows what I look like morally naked, so to speak. That's embarrassing! Am I brave enough to commit myself to a God who knows things about me that I have been hiding from myself for 50 years?
So the cold, slick part of me thinks that maybe at some point you have to love God not as you think He is, but as He really is. And I wonder how many people really want all that Truth.
Pretty evasive, huh?
[ For kicks, ask a Unitarian or a Mormon. ]
Ugh Ugh.. I’ll ask YOU...
What is a christian, Dawg..?..
****
A Christian is one who takes on the name of Jesus Christ and strives to Keeps the Commandments of Jesus Christ!
Mormons are harder because as far as I can tell, they think IHS is OUR savior (or the savior of some of us), but that SEEMS to mean that He is is A savior — the savior in our cosmic neighborhood, not THE cosmic universal, only one of His kind savior.
****
That is not accurate Mad Dawg, Jesus Christ is the Savior all of who choose to receive his gift.
It would make no sense to bestow a gift on someone who is not interested!
Oh, many Catholics DO worship the church and its dogma. I’m glad you don’t, vlad.
He sendeth rain upon the just and the unjust, doth he not? And the guy who just washed his car gets rained on as much as the guy who just sowed perennial rye-grass, but only one is happy.
As to making sense, I gave up that long long ago. It may not make sense to me, but things which often don't make sense to me make sense to God.
I don't want to argue with you about the truth or not of what you believe. I was wondering rather what you believe to be true, and specifically what you think a Christian is, so that you MIGHT say that there is some larger set of people rightly called "Christian" of which Mormons make a subset.
And to be a tad less glib: I tend to trust God (sometimes) to work stuff out. So TODAY a person, say Glenn Beck, might think that the gift of God is, well, nice but it doesn't have much to do with him personally. But the next day he receives God's gift, and THEN He realizes how much he wants it.
It's kind of the opposite of marriage, which you want until you have it. NO! Wait! ONLY kidding! Just joking ,dear. Heh heh heh (Put down the rolling pin and step away from the carving knife? dear?)
Stand by for a barrage of jokes ....
INCOMING!
Q: Why do they bury lawyers 12 feet deep?B: Because, deep down, they're not so bad.
We now return you to your regular religious disputation.
Yes, canonically, baptism makes one Christian. For the baptism to be valid it has to be done intending to indeed initiate into the Christian faith (not, for example, role playing as children might do), desired by the sponsors who voluntarily take the responsibility to inculcate the baptisee in the faith, be done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (or the Holy Spirit), and use water that touched the head of the baptizee. Anyone can baptize validly, even, in an emergency, a non-Christian, so long as the intention is there.
Apostasy is a complete rejection of faith in Jesus Christ. It is to be distinguished from heresy, that is falling to partial error of Christian doctrine.
Both subjects can have a dissertation written. Why do you ask?
You wrote:
“Oh, many Catholics DO worship the church and its dogma. I’m glad you don’t, vlad.”
And I’m sure if I asked for proof of that “worship” you would be just as unsuccessful in presenting it as you were when you claimed we worshiped Mary and the pope, right?
R-I-G-H-T.
LoL.. Nah.. cute.. folksy.. maybe stand up spiritually comical but not evasive..
Just wanted you to go.. on record..
which is honest.. many will not..
I should perhaps add that the Church can only judge the outward form, as in this case, sacramental baptism and public apostasy. She cannot judge the internal disposition. It is possible for an unbaptised to be conformed to Christ internally, and it is possible for a baptized to be in apostasy without any external sign of it. An example that is usually given is several catechumens, -- that is, unbaptized undergoing instruction, -- that were canonized saints:
The Roman Breviary, with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, 1936, states the following:"Emerentiana was a virgin of Rome and foster-sister of S Agnes. Though still but a catechumen she was filled with burning faith and charity, and upbraided the idolators who were attacking the Christians. The crowd thereupon stoned her to death. She suffered while praying at the tomb of S Agness, and, baptized in her own blood, so generously shed for Christ, gave up her soul to God."
In the Roman Martyrology, published by Order of Gregory XIII, and revised by the authority of Urban VIII and Clement X, and afterwards, in the year 1749 by Benedict XIV), this is said:
"At Rome, the holy virgin and martyr Emerentiana. Being yet only a catechumen, she was stoned to death by the Gentiles, whilst praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, her foster-sister.
Another catechumen according to The Roman Martyrology is St. Victor.
"At Braga, in Portugal,St. Victor, martyr, who although only a catechumen, refused to adore an idol, and confessed Jesus Christ with great constancy. After suffering many tortures, he was beheaded, and thus merited to be baptized in his own blood.
From The Roman Martyrology, page 182:
Alban, martyr, who gave himself up to save a cleric who he harbored. After being scourged and subjected to bitter torments, he was sentenced to capital punishment. With him suffered also one of the soldiers that led him to execution, who was converted to Christ on the way, and merited to be baptized in his own blood.
And on page 188:
"After having strenuously opposed the heretics by speech and writing, he was crowned with a glorious martyrdom, with almost all the people of his city, during the persecution of Severus. At Alexandria, in the same persecution of Severus, the holy martyrs Plutarch, Serenus, Heraclides, catechumen, Heron, neophyte, another Serenus, Rhais, catechumen, Potamioena and Marcella, her mother."
Page 257:
At Arles, in France, another blessed Genesius, who, filling the office of natary, and refusing to record the impious edicts by which Christians wre commanded to be punished, threw away his tablets publicly, and declared himself a Christian. He was seized and beheaded, and thus attained to the glory of martyrdom through baptism of blood.
Obviously, examples of the baptized who completely sever their relationship with the Church internally are all too common.
Which church?..
I keep seeing (or think that I keep seeing) statements from that would indicate that Jesus is somehow apart from God.
I know. It is difficult, at least for me, to explain with laser precision. Jesus said that He and the Father are one. Good enough for me, they are not apart. Then later, Jesus cries out: "Matt 27:46 : About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?" How would you describe that EXACT moment, the moment when Jesus literally bore all of our sins?
FK: ***The Son is a separate person from the Father and the Spirit, and they are all one in essence. Jesus has two natures, one fully human and one fully Divine.***
See what I mean?
Yes. When I commented on Jesus having two natures, I was thinking of what Kosta has said many times, so I felt I was on solid ground there in terms of being challenged. Right now he and I are discussing whether it is important to distinguish between "persona" and "person".
There is in principle one Church, although there is a disunity between her bishops, and some diversity of the liturgy, so what we have is Catholic Churches in union with Rome, and various Orthodox Churches, and lesser known pre-Chalcedon Churches such as the Ethiopian Church or the Armenian Church.
As Catholics, we reject the Protestant concept of invisible Church of all Christian believers. When someone is validly baptized in a Protestant community of faith, he is still baptized with the one Catholic baptism, albeit he is not in full communion with the Church and is likely to fall away because of that.
Like I said, it is a complex subject, but I appreciate the questions.
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