Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Not really.
I’m not around RC’s locally much at all. Certainly not when they are worshipping. The startling idol and altar in the Restaurant was the closest I’ve gotten.
I certainly didn’t query the pilgrims in the Vatican for their names . . . nor those in Asia.
***I doubt Michaelangelo started out intending the Pieta to be an idol. It has sure become so. What I didn’t understand was with both Christ and Mary in the statue, Mary seemed to get more attention, adoration, worship from the pilgrims.***
Veneration, sure. We appreciate so very much what she did for us in bearing the Christ child, in raising Him to adulthood and standing by Him during His passion. I don’t believe that it is worship; none of the folks that I know worship Mary. But we are so absolutely grateful to her for what she has done for all of us.
***Certainly not all pilgrims prostrated themselves before this or that. But some did.***
I imagine that when first faced with such a holy place, people will do what their hearts lead them to do. I have been in many holy places - the Dom in Koln (second only to St. Peter’s in Europe) almost overwhelmed me when I entered. I felt God’s presence everywhere in that cathedral to the greatest degree that I have ever felt it. I almost prostrated myself on the spot just upon entering.
***The facts will either be ignored, dodged or some such and some minutae will be siezed on instead.***
There is a difference between facts and beliefs. One’s beliefs do not necessarily coincide with established facts. And vice versa.
***I certainly didn’t query the pilgrims in the Vatican for their names . . . nor those in Asia.***
You keep making claims and are not able to back them up.
I have prostrated myself in moments/places of worship as well.
But never TO an idol or anything or anyone else but God.
There may have been once as an act of submission to a Pastor but I deeply regretted it immediately.
The admission was that those who prostrate themselves before a statue of Mary would be worshipping her. I have seen such . . .
That’s the point.
Dance around it to your heart’s content.
Consider it however you will.
My memory is not perfect but not that flawed either.
Sounds like you construe me as a lying Alzheimer’s patient.
LOL.
Must be comforting to your biases.
Very good question. The Church believes that she was resurrected body and soul. Only the Catholic Church has a dogma to that effect pronounced in 1952 or 1954. I think it is presumptious to assume tat we know God's judgment.
***The admission was that those who prostrate themselves before a statue of Mary would be worshipping her. I have seen such . . .***
You keep making unsubstantiated claims. You’ve seen this, you’ve done that, you’ve experienced the other.
Why is it so important that you present no evidence?
I cited the evidence of my experiences and observations at the Vatican.
I’ve seen similar things in Asia.
I never really imagined that any evidence I cited would satisfy the RC edifice reps hereon.
Cheers.
***My memory is not perfect but not that flawed either.
Sounds like you construe me as a lying Alzheimer’s patient.***
I don’t know who or what you are. The only evidence that I’m able to gather is from your posts. You claim much; you evidence little. I don’t know who Quix is. I’ve never met you and I cannot say if you are 61 or you are 21; if you are in academe or if you are on skid row; if you are white or black or Asian or polka dot.
I don’t know who you are or even what you represent.
***The Church believes that she was resurrected body and soul. ***
Yes.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc,
et in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen.
GLORIA PATRI, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
May God be glorified; may Mary be revered.
***I cited the evidence of my experiences and observations at the Vatican.***
You claim unsubstantiated claims. You have presented no evidence; you have nothing to back up your claim. If the problem is as widespread as you claim, you ought to have ample evidence amounting to proofs.
***I never really imagined that any evidence I cited would satisfy the RC edifice reps hereon.***
Then why did you present them? Why did you even bring them up? I thought that you were in academe? What would motivate an individual to do such things?
Given such a paucity of knowledge about me . . . you sure seem to have formed some intensely strong biases, impressions, beliefs about me . . . thankfully, many of which appear to be wholesale wrong.
BTW, I am 61. I do have a very intensely earned PhD . . . and I don’t tend to say things that are unlikely to be true.
The problem is plenty widespread.
I’d have thought you’d have noticed yourself.
Interesting.
Aside from Mary's role, what is our difference about the Incarnation? And, how does this relate to predestination vs. foreknowledge?
***BTW, I am 61. I do have a very intensely earned PhD . . . and I don’t tend to say things that are unlikely to be true.***
For the first, I have no evidence, neither have I to the second. I do have evidence that your third claim is patently false based upon your posts.
***The problem is plenty widespread.
I’d have thought you’d have noticed yourself.
Interesting.***
The biggest problem is unsubstantiated claims. I’d appreciate you backing up any of the wild claims that you have posted to date. In a previous post, you postulated that I thought of you as an Alzheimer’s patient.
I don’t think of you quite as an Alzheimer’s patient.
Wellllllllll,
I find the !!!TRADITION!!!, magicsterical, rubber ‘Bible,’ rubber history and rubber logic “evidences”
wholly lacking, nonsensical, false, embarrassingly silly and bankrupt, irrational, cheap, tawdry, blasphemous, idolatrous . . . etc.
You’re not happy with my evidences.
I doubt either of us are going to change very greatly regarding the other’s evidences.
Personally, I think folks with eyes to see and ears to hear warrant evidence much more than folks given to leaning on the wet noodle pole of the above ‘sources.’
But mostly, I’ve learned what I’ve learned from a lifetime of intense curiosity and intense observation.
I write, as noted before, mostly for the lurkers. Those lurkers with eyes to see and ears to hear “get it” as a fair number of have noted to me privately.
Those with sufficient interest search out additional sources and the like.
I mostly don’t feel obligated to provide you with much at all.
Cheers.
***You’re not happy with my evidences.***
You haven’t provided any.
***I doubt either of us are going to change very greatly regarding the other’s evidences.***
You haven’t provided any. You’ve just made wild claims.
***Personally, I think folks with eyes to see and ears to hear warrant evidence much more than folks given to leaning on the wet noodle pole of the above ‘sources.’***
In other words, you cannot prove anything that you say.
***I write, as noted before, mostly for the lurkers. Those lurkers with eyes to see and ears to hear “get it” as a fair number of have noted to me privately.***
Give my love to the greys.
***Those with sufficient interest search out additional sources and the like.***
And the reptilians.
***I mostly don’t feel obligated to provide you with much at all.***
As I’ve come to expect. You make wild claims and provide no evidence. You act affronted when asked for evidence. I am willing to debate you; it would be sufficient if you would provide proofs along with your claims.
Unto ages of ages.
***May God be glorified; may Mary be revered
Unto ages of ages.***
Amen.
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