Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

It’s the story of my life.

Kosta, from our conversations and now here, this timing problem of yours is getting way out of hand

Because, maybe, in the back of your mind, you know that it is singificant although not desirable in your preconceived picture of the development of Christianity?

From your above, it sounds like you are saying that Christians didn't believe that Christ was God until John was written 60 or 70 years after the fact. Is that right?

We can only speculate what was taught orally. And we can hope that what was taught orally is the same thing that was written down later on, beginning after 70 AD (destruction of Jerusalem's Temple).

Unless something changed between 33 AD and after 70 AD, and the Epistles and Synoptic Gospels took a u-turn, Christ is not specifically called God (again "Lord" is not exclusively used for God), and neither is the Spirit of God. Son of God and Spirit of God are Jewish terms interpreted by Christians in a different fashion as, for instance, the word "cool" has evolved into something other than indicating ambient temperature.

History tells us that calling Christ or any human for that matter "God" in Israel would have bee taken as utmost blasphemy and would have meant an automatic death, by stoning or otherwise. So, obviously the followers of Christ could not go to synagogues they attended and preached Jesus to be God.

So, neither do the early Gospels, nor the Epistles explicitly call Christ "God," nor did they treat Him as deity. In the time span, between the Synoptic Gospels and St. John's Gospel (20-30 years), something happened.

At the tail end of that time span, the rabbis rejected everything Christian (Jamnia), and instituted a daily prayer cursing "heretics" (minim), as the last remnants of the Church were evicted from the synagogues.

It is rather obvious that Christians, in time, did come to believe that Christ is God (they sure didn't in Acts 1!), and that Son of God in His case was not just a title reserved for the angles and kings (as in Judaism) but literally means God's only begotten Son, God of God, True Light of True Light, of one essence as the Father, as the Creed was was later formulated, just as they, in time, came to believe that the Holy Spirit is not just the "power of God" (Judaic meaning), but actually God Himself, co-eternal and co-substantial with the Father and the Son.

Synoptic Gospels express Christ's humanity as much as, some 20-30 years later—free form constraints of Judaism, and Sanhedrin, St. John's Gospel expresses Christ's divinity.

But we also know that St. Paul's Epistles do not call him God, but an image of God (as one would expect from second Adam, a perfect man), even though Paul was not constrained by Israel's rule of the Sanhedrin, which tells us that Christ's divinity is something that became gradually known because, as the Holy Apostle reminds us, we "see dimly" now and things become clearer as we continue life in Christ.

The fact that the Epistles of St. Paul express the same humanity of Christ and not His divinity as the Synaptic Gospels gives us every reason to believe that the Synaptic Gospels, when they were written some 40 years after the Crucfixion, reflected what was taught up to that point in Christian history, and that St. John's Gospel is a new development in Christian understanding of Christ as fully divine as well as fully human.

Before I stepped backwards over the top lip of 130+ yard cliff, I THOUGHT I trusted my skills and my ropes.

One second after I stepped off, I KNEW I trusted my skills and my ropes.

Then I went for a stretch without doing any rope work at all. I had to learn to trust all over again.

Propositions, (Get me my hammer! Which way to the chapel door?

Baptism is an efficacious grafting into the Body of Christ.
The Church is visible, sho' 'nuff.
However there a members of the Church in REALLY crappy standing (term of art, no?) and their connection to the Church is virtually imperceptible (like my typing skills).
The distinction between 'Christian' and "member of the Church" is not a real distinction.
Heretics (those who embrace error with a sufficient degree of knowledge that the CHurch teaches otherwise, a sufficient degree of knowledge of the Church's grounds to claim authority, and a ditto of intent) are members of the Church in really awful standing.Heretics and those who cling to error with varying degrees of intent and culpability, harm themselves and other members of the body of Christ, and, especially, their misbelief hinders to the point of prevention theosis.
To the extent that actions, internal or external, are directly attributable to demonic control, and to the extent that that control is the partially or wholly the result of some sin of the person being controlled, they are not culpable.
But in the immediately preceding point and in those dealing with awareness and willfulness of misblelief cases are difficult to determine.
In any event, Truth, and the desire and ability to embrace Him are the gift of God.

Oops, I just remembered an appointment elsewhere ..... See ya. Gotta go.

IN closing, I'd just like to say

DOE SNOT

then it appears to me that what is influencing you is not the HS but rather a demon. Sincere seekers after Christ often attract demons and in all honesty, to the extent that the seeker is estranged from God’s Holy Church, the “smaller” or “weaker” the demon, though the result of that demonic influence can be as destructive as that wrought by the most powerful of the Evil One’s fellow travelers.

lol.

Matthew 11:18, Luke 7:33, John 10:20. And a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Consequently, in our ignorance and in this solipsistic culture it is not surprising that many cannot imagine that allegiance to the cumbersome "edifice" of Catholicism or the ancient glory of Orthodoxy would seem not so much repellent and repugnant as simply unthinkable.

Thank you. Exactly! The solipsistic culture that has become the "standard" of all truth is an outgrowth of "me-myself-and-I" way of lifestyle we have particualry favor in America for some 40-50 years now.

That way you can be "Catholic" or "Orthodox" but not really adhere to all of its premises and teachings. You can make it your own "PC religion" and it's just as "good" any any other version of it...

Solipsim feeds the ego, and with it—pride. Such deception cannot possibly come from God. First you are assured that all your sins are forgiven, no matter what; your salvation is assured, no matter what, only if you recite the "magic words" (Jesus is my Savior) and you get dunked although it doesn't save, the way one "becomes" a Muslim by reciting the "magic words" "There is not God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet" three times! The similarity is glaring.

It actually "makes sense" to our fallen souls (and yet one cursory look around and above us reminds us that nothing in the Creation is the way we would or could make it).

It's too simple, too easy. Yet it has appeal just because of that, because we want to be sure and secure and promised eternal glory, because no one wants to die and suffer in eternity. So, by elevating ourselves above all others, in our mind, we re-create the Creation in our own image and to our own taste.

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ! And thank you for your encouragements!

Sadly, the desire of man to distance himself from the glory of God is ancient:

And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel [that] which he was commanded. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him. – Exodus 34:29-35

Jesus Christ is the brightness of the Father’s glory (Hebrews 1:3) and men are afraid of the Light:

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. – John 1:4-5

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. – John 3:18-21

But we are children of the Light:

For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness. - Psalms 18:28

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 5:14-16

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: - Ephesians 5:8

The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalms 27:1

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. – John 8:12

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. – I Thessalonians 5:5

Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. – 1 John 2:8-10

God is Light and His Light burns.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. – John 15:6

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. – I Corinthians 3:15

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. – 2 Peter 3:5-7

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire. – Hebrews 12:25-29

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

“You should also know the following subterfuge of the demons: at times they divide themselves into groups. Some come with a temptation; and when you ask for help others come in the guise of angels and chase away the first, to make you believe that they are true angels, and fall into vainglory, through having been granted such a thing.”

more chuckles. This is found where in scripture? Or was it channelled to your desert monls?

Its ONLY RINOs that detest Ann COulter

I have no idea what RINO is, but whatever you are saying sounds positiviley somehting I remember form communism (same "official truth").

And, for the record: I DETEST Ann Coulter.

Well, sure it's not causative. It's maybe diagnostic.

Doe snot. Just sayin'.

Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony, insights and concerns, dear brother in Christ! You are a wonderful wordsmith and I greatly appreciate your good humor and wit.

Coming at it from another POV, since Alamo-Girl says that when she speaks as the Spirit leads her she does not necessarily abide by the strictures of logic, then the conversation with her must be of a particular kind, or, at least, cannot be of a particular kind.

Very true. I believe God and trust Him alone. And I do not question His words but receive them all as Truth because He says them.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

Therefore I am in direct opposition to any correspondent who values as equal or superior certain knowledge that which derives from reason or sensory perception.

My mantra is that faith and reason are complementary but reason cannot substitute for faith.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25

Thus, I also aver that man is not the “measure” of God. And therefore, I shun the doctrines and traditions of men.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deuteronomy 4:2

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. – Jeremiah 2:13

You also said:

A-G, this may seem unbearably condescending of me. I don't know what to do about that except to ask God to amend what can be amended and to redeem what cannot. But I think if you were ever to become a Catholic or to join an Orthodox body, you would shine like the sun and know a joy that would almost eclipse the joy you already show so clearly.

The irony here is that half of my family is Catholic – and the entire family is Christian. Stranger still that I attend most every church in town – and more often than the others, the Catholic church as some of my relatives are elderly and in poor health. Indeed, our cousin who has suffered a stroke is Catholic and I have wheeled her forward to partake of the Eucharist even though by the doctrine of the Catholic Church (in their pamphlets provided in the pews) I am specifically forbidden. At the request of the family, I led them all in their "Hail Mary"s and "Our Father"s at the funeral services for her sister before the priest arrived.

If I thought the Catholic Church was hazardous to their Spiritual health, I certainly would have said so.

But the Catholic Church is an exclusive “club” as hosepipe is wont to say. The subtext is “our way or the highway.” Nevertheless, if the Spirit led me to join that club, I would. But He hasn’t. And for that, the local priest ought to be thanking God – because I would surely be a disruption since if I were a member, I would challenge every dogma, every doctrine, every sacrament, every tradition that serves as a wedge or even a veil between God and man.

Of a Truth, there is only one Way, Jesus Christ. And the Catholic Church is not God.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14:6

To God be the glory!

Republican-In-Name-Only.. Socialist in Capitalist clothing..

Good analogy, thanks. Of course I’m going to steal it, but take this as a thanks for the many times I’ll use it in the future.

[ Doe snot. Just sayin'. ]

DOH!..

Thank you so much for pinging me to this sidebar discussion!

Often overlooked is this operative phrase:

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. – Matthew 16:15-18

That is why Peter is called "rock" like Abraham, He was the first to be called out, to receive the revelation from God the Father.

Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah [that] bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. – Isaiah 51:1-2

Likewise, those following Peter can make the same confession of faith only by the power of God.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – 1 Corinthians 12:3

And again,

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

And again,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

The point of the confession is not that it is the words of men but that it is the words of God.

To God be the glory!

“Or was it channelled to your desert monls?”

It came from one of our monks...one of the monks who channeled the HS and came up with the canon of the NT for you folks to thump. :)

Extreme minimalism?

Thank you so much for sharing your testimony, dearest sister in Christ!

lol

Thank you oh so very much for those excellent Scriptures, dear brother in Christ!