Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
“So... you will tell us what we are to believe and if we don’t believe you, and or the men you follow,there is no place in your Christianity for the rest of us?”
That’s hardly my call, 1000 s and it is certainly not my place to tell you what to believe. I know there is a place in The Church for all people, but that place requires a metanoia which most find far too difficult to undertake. I cannot say what consequences that failure or refusal might have.
B-D,
That sentence, especially the prepositional phrase I have bolded, brings me up short. If we could forego that level of specificity, I'd say that the Holy Spirit is involved in every perception of truth, from "The Sky is blue," through "2+2=4" and "I love you, Daddy," to "Courage is beautiful, excellence is difficult" to "Jesus Christ is Lord."
"The Spirit of the Lord has filled the whole world, and that which holds all things together knows what is said," (Sapientiae I:7) would be the tag.
I don't commit to the Church FOR salvation, but All who do so, do so in (or by, or one of them pesky prepositions) the Spirit, I would say.
“But y’all really have eroded that historical sense of mine a lot more than I’d have preferred.”
Q...I know that you of all people here would not have wished to labor under any misapprehension of fact concerning Orthodoxy. Now that you have seen a bit more about Orthodoxy as reflected in a very, very fallen devotee like me, you probably should adjust your opinion. How and to what is entirely your province, Q.
pssst! It's "stock", "Stock of a tree". You know, like shares of Weyerhauser, or Georgia Pacific or somesuch.
LoL.. you must be a special dark colored precious stone... I LIKE THAT...
Our self pride interferes with this and God does not force us. This goes for those who profess to be Catholic and do not follow the teachings of the Church
Divisions are not of Christ.
I think it is inaccurate to characterize us Calflicks as saying, "and if [you] don't believe [us], and or the men [we] follow,there is no place in [our]Christianity for the rest of [you]."
If you are baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity, you have a place in the Church. I am not saying anything about the place of those who are NOT baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity.
There is a disagreement. Many of you hold, I think, that if we believed more of what you believe and less of what we believe we would be happier and less guilt-driven and hag-ridden and do more good and imperil our souls less with idolatries and blasphemies and the rest. And RCs think that if you came into communion with the See of Rome and availed yourself of the teachings and sacraments you would would be happier and do more good and imperil your souls less with self-worship and blasphemies and the rest.
That doesn't mean we think there is no place in the Church for you, or that you are in come kind of communion with the Church right now.
I don't know where the orthodox are on the baptized who are not Orthodox. But I suspect that they join with us filthy papists in trusting in God's saving will.
In the past my posts of this kind have generally been responded to with startling hostility and/or condescension. I'm bracing myself.
“pssst! It’s “stock”, “Stock of a tree”. You know, like shares of Weyerhauser, or Georgia Pacific or somesuch.”
See, MD, I can’t even get my idolatry straight! Well, what are you gonna do?
You HAVE to read Dante. Hell is so full of Popes they raised the rental rates.
Sure they are.. Jesus never for-bade forming clubs..
The Sheep Pens in John ch10.. testifies to that..
Jesus is the GATE and "some" follow his voice "OUT" of them..
BUT the sheep pens are pens for SHEEP.. NOT goats..
The metaphor is intact..
Oh! yes Dawg.. you are another rare precious stone...
“I don’t know where the orthodox are on the baptized who are not Orthodox. But I suspect that they join with us filthy papists in trusting in God’s saving will.”
My Arabic speaking co religionists say “Inshallah”. So even if you papists bathe, we’ll leave it at that!
Dear HP,
This says nothing about Christ NOT WANTING us to be united.
“I believe the Holy Spirit would guide us to the Catholic Church and we would all be united in one”
“I’d say that the Holy Spirit is involved in every perception of truth,”
So we all agree that the Holy Spirit leads individual believers, not just communities or special offices.
"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." and earlier "... no one can say "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (pronounced by Fr. Carl Naro as "HOOLy Spirit".)
Ask my wife: Clearly the only proper leading of the Spirit for ME is to obey. Diversities of gifts, y'know: "Whatever you say, dear."
But with that all blathered out, where are you takin' us, boss?
According to the metaphor in John ch 10 those that COME OUT of the sheep pens ARE united for that is the flock.. Those in the sheep pens are merely clubbers or religionists..
The flock was/is/ and always been united.. various sheep pens are just "holding pens".. for those needing to hear his voice.. I know, I know that doesnt leave a lot of room for clergy.. But Oh! Well..
The Holy Spirit certainly always leads us to love, but the Holy Spirit DOES NOT lead those to teach against the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
That type of spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit.
I wish you a Blessed Evening
“What was THAT? I think I heard a snare whistling past my ears ....”
The point was not “where you believe the Holy Spirit leads the individual” but that the Holy Spirit does lead individuals. Where or how are different questions.
Okay. 10-4. But is that controversial? We're just nailing down the starting point, right? Holy Spirit leads and interacts with idiwiddles. Check!
Of course.
Whenever we see unconditional love, it is the Holy Spirit.
It can be a Muslim, a protestant,a Jew etc...
The problem I see is that those claiming to be in the Holy Spirit in their individual interpretations of scripture and forming various communities when they don’t agree with each other.
There can only be one Holy Spirit of truth
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