Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
So does Daniel. The term itself was messianic, but not necessarily predicitng Christ. Those who want to see Christ in it see Christ. Those who don't, don't. Obviously, many early Christians did, but then again early Christianity was not unified any more than it is today. There was a "core" of orthodox Christians surrounded by various sects and cults, and there was fierce competition between them. They all used scriptures in a futile attempt to "prove" each other wrong.
Evidence of heresies is known from +Ignatius' epistles c. 105, AD and from +Irenaeus' life-defining struggle against them in the latter half of the 2nd century.
The term itself, the Son of Man, the Son of God, and the Elect One, in Judaism is never associated with God. Jewish messiah is human, form the the tribe of Judah, of davidic genealogy, a favorite of God, but not divine. The terms listed above are standard Old Testament terminology used for angels and kings.
By the 2nd century, there were some 200 manuscripts of every kind circulating the area, all of them pretending to be of "apostolic" or some prophetic origin. None of them had a seal of authenticity or copyright, including the Gospels.
That various local churches read many, if not most, of them at one time or another is only proves that, if the Spirit does lead, He does not lead individuals but the whole Church.
The "core" of the Church never gave in to heresy although at times orthodoxy was a distinct minority. Arguing that just because some (not all), even if most, used 1 Enoch as scriptural, doesn't make it scripture. When the Church as a whole decided on the Christian canon, 1 Enoch was not one of them. But 1 Enoch was no singled out.
The Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermes are found in the oldest complete Chritsian Bible, Codex Sinaiticus, so there is no reason to believe that similar books were not read everywhere else under the same bishop.
The Church is where the bishop is (eucharistically), but no bishop is the Church! The entire canonization of the Christian Bible shows that, on the individual level, there was no Spiritual guidance. Books were "horse traded" as Forest Keeper says (i.e. Hebrews and Revelation) as a matter of compromise which hardly smacks of divine infallibility.
Yet all major Christian sects and even cults accept the canonization decided by the Church, even though they deny the authority of the same!
When the Church canonized the Cristian Bible, it may or may not have done sone under the guidence of the Spirit. Those who accept it as an infallible collection of "true" books assume it was, but there is no proof of this at all since the canon was neither complete nor universalliy accepted by the Church, and has sincde the official cnaonization undergone further changes and rejections of individual parts.
Your own site shows that the Galasian list of canonized books includes only one letter to Corinthians! Obviously, 2 Corinthians was not part of the canon by the 6th century!
The (third) Council of Carthage that canonized the Bible lists only 13 epsitles of Paul. Somone, at a later date (had to be after the 6th century, considering the date of the Galasian Decree), added a footnote to the Carthagenian Council saying that there were 14 epsitles of Paul!. Hmmmmm.
What most people do not want to see or hear is that the Bible is a travesty of human manipulation and bickering and fraud, full of editing and transcribing errors, and personal whims.
This must be devastating to most people discover (I know if twas for me) and their firts reaction (quite understably), when faced with this truth, is denial and outrage. But the ulitmate test of our faith is in dealing with this reality, and remembering that it is not the bible that gives us faith!
As far as you revealing the date of Decretum Galesianum, which I find curious as to the timing, my argument was about the so-called Damascine list, which is a fraud and which is included in the Galasian Decree as genuine. The Damascene list could not have been attributed to Damascus I, the Boshop of Rome, in 366 AD, as you alleged in your previous post. So, since there is no credibility whatsoever to the list itself or to anything in that document.
But I find it curious, if not surprising, that you would roam such sites, as the Gnostic Tertullian.org, to use as a genuine source of reliable information. It's quite telling.
As Mad Dawg observed, burning books is deplorable by our modern standards, and so is burning people at stake, and so is slavery. But perceptions change all the time and applying the same standards to the ancients as we do to ourselves today is naïve at best, if not outright ridiculous, or dead wrong.
The bigotry of the early Church vis-a-vis the Jews is glaring, and what Martin Luther had to say about them is unthinkable. In those days, however, it was "politically correct."
So, your indignation at book burning might as well extend to all the evils done by human beings all the way up to the present, including our own "potiically correct" standards.
My objection to all of you Bible quoters is that faith is yours and yours only. It is your reality, whether it is real or not in the absolute sense. If you find "proof" or profit in the Bible, so be it, but do not push your faith on anyone, as faith is neither provable nor disprovable.
It is how you live and what you do that tells more about your faith than all the words we have poured out in these forums. So, please do not inundate me with bible quotes unles absolutely necessary. It turns me off because, no matter how you look at it, in the end it is still a human choice. The first thing to relaize, when eschewing all traditions of men, is to start wiht your own.
Once again, sir, you have gotten straight to the heart of the matter. Thank you for going past my error.
“[If] God creates the good, who created evil?”
“That’s not Christianity, and never was, but then again we already know that. I am only making a point for lurkers.”
Here’s something for the “lurkers”, when do you suppose God created hell? Was this an after-thought when He saw man sin?
“The Greek tradition has hell in the sense of an underworld where the dead await resurrection, but the damned are thrown into the fire on Judgment Day, not at death. The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that both the elect and the lost enter into the presence of God after death, and that the elect experience this presence as light and rest, while the lost experience it as darkness and torment.[10] The Orthodox see this doctrine as supported by Scripture and by the patristic tradition.”
“The afterlife for the damned is dreadful anticipation of Judgment Day, while the elect happily await the resurrection of the dead. The Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead, and they believe that sometimes a lost soul can be saved after death through the prayers of the living.”
There is a difference between testing/trials and temptation. When a teacher gives a “true and false” exam, the false questions aren’t there to teach the students to think wrong, but to assess their competency and to help them learn from their errors. Temptation is intended to lead one into a state of error.
1 Cor. 10: 13, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”
And if per chance we do succomb to temptation, He has made a further way back,
1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
That is Christianity.
If you say the Church teaches that, then OK. However, :) if a priest denies absolution to a confessor, then isn't that person "presumptively" still damned? The important part is that I would imagine that is exactly what the person would think. In his mind, his only job would be to do whatever it takes to convince the priest of his sincerity. I would counsel him to channel his thoughts in other directions (i.e. directly to God). :) This is the power angle I harp on all the time.
Christ died to destroy our soul’s death and rose again to restore our eternal life. That makes it possible for us to be saved. We could not otherwise.
AAARRRGGGHHHH!! :) Don't you see the internal inconsistency here? If Christ's resurrection ONLY made it POSSIBLE for us to be saved, THEN He did NOT rise to "restore our eternal life". He only rose to make that possible. This is an ABSOLUTE DAY AND NIGHT DIFFERENCE. :) It is one of the main differences between our respective faiths. These two concepts do not mix at all. If Christ ONLY set the stage for man to do it himself, then Christ actually accomplished NOTHING other than setting the stage for the real actors (deciders). This is why we think the Apostolic view SO degrades what we think Christ actually DID accomplish on the cross.
In the Sermon on the Mount, we are instructed to do and are told what happens if we do not do - we are eternally punished in hell. The words of Jesus are plain and require little interpretation.
Well, we agree that those who don't look like the Christian model we are given are very subject to being lost. However, we disagree on w(W)ho is in charge of the whole thing. With God in control, all of the statements in the Sermon are taken at face value and as a matter of fact, they describe a true believer and what he looks like. But, with man in control, those same statements look like a buffet of choices for any man to partake of. One could only hope that he makes the right number of each selection. So, we would both say the words are plain, but we have extremely different interpretations. :)
Yes. He came into the world to save sinners - to save all sinners - and there are going to be some that refuse to be saved.
Then, by definition, Christ is a failure. How does the Church reconcile that? We say Christ CAN'T fail because He is God.
I think we see Scripture come alive right on these threads. Unless the LORD opens your eyes no matter how much evidence is presented it is not enough. If the LORD has opened your eyes you begin to see how much evidence was around you the whole time.
Christ Crucified really is a stumbling block, or foolishness to those that don't see yet. We can only keep saying it and pray that the LORD plans on opening their eyes.
NOW thats a bit of wisdom... Except for presenting your "case" to the lurkers.. but even then the meme(above) resonates..
Thank you so much for your encouragements!
***None are worthy in their own right. But obviously, by God’s standards, some are “deemed” or “considered” worthy to enter Heaven and some are not. Imputed vs. infused.**
It is the acceptance of the Grace of God that makes man worthy.
***Can you really throw away your “right” to be your father’s son? ***
We are adopted into His family. That can be rescinded.
***My guess would have been that we probably agree on who makes up the saved (unless sacraments are required for salvation), but we disagree about whether one is able to know if he is one of them. :)***
Mark’s Gospel says that belief and baptism are required. Peter and Paul speak of hope.
Thank God that it is much easier to understand His will for us! There is only one Great Commandment:
Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. – Revelation 2:1-5
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:37-40
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7
***Philip obviously was not in correct obedient submission to Peter, the Purported Pontificator of Rome . . . How DARE Philip send that hapless Ethiopian Eunuch off to attempt the utter futility of living a Christian life with ONLY a few bits of UNRUBBERIZED, UNROMANIZED Scriptures and Holy Spirit to aid him.
NO Most Self-Righteously Holy Magnificent Maryolatrous Magicsterically Pontifical Politically Roman Apostolic Churchianity to administer the Sacraments; Forgive him for lusting after an extra mango in his heart; absolve him for not saying enough Hail Mary’s; threaten him for not kowtowing sufficiently in front of sufficient numbers of images; ostracize him for not calling sufficient numbers of men FATHER; . . .
The very futile audacity of Philip to Preach the Word to the poor Eunuch and send him off with only Scripture and Holy Spirit to guide him. ***
Hmmm, I suppose that your Bible has omitted Acts 6:
2
So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table.
3
Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task,
4
whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
5
The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
6
They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them. 4
7
The word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly; even a large group of priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
Phillip was appointed to be clergy in the fledgling Church.
Don’t you read your Bible at all?
But if that’s true, it’s not the “roman catholic church.”
And Philips daughters were Evangelists.....
There is only one point though which I wish to address and that is the qualification for conveying the words of God.
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. – John 21:15-19
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
If we love Jesus, we are to convey the words of God.
The Apostles, of course, love Him - most strongly, the Apostle John - so no wonder they conveyed the words of God.
To God be the glory!
INDEED.
Obviously, much better and more often than
some RC edifice Reps.
Interesting that your post didn’t begin to touch the point of my post.
I realize that’s SOP for the RC magicsterical reps . . . but sometimes, I just like to point it out for the slow of eye.
I realize that the obsessions with RUBBERIZED BIBLES leaves folks grossly unskilled in
comparing authentic Bible readers with
lack of Bible reading etc.
But the solution is simple. Get authentic UNRUBBERIZED Bibles!
With sheep you must take the sheep to ground they can feed themselves.. by example mostly.. You can teach with words somewhat but every human ever born is a preacher by what he does or does not do..
Everybody is a preacher.. by what they do.. Which speaks much more loudly than what they/you say.. So everyone is an Evangelist for something.. YES YOU, (lurker)..
To ALL I say.. What are you preaching?...
***However, :) if a priest denies absolution to a confessor, then isn’t that person “presumptively” still damned?***
It is not the priest’s place to do so. It is the Holy Spirit that judges the repentence, not the priest. If the priest denies someone that is truly repentent, the Holy Spirit is not subordinate to the priest (rather vice versa) and presumably would forgive that person’s sin.
*** Don’t you see the internal inconsistency here? If Christ’s resurrection ONLY made it POSSIBLE for us to be saved, THEN He did NOT rise to “restore our eternal life”. He only rose to make that possible. This is an ABSOLUTE DAY AND NIGHT DIFFERENCE. :) It is one of the main differences between our respective faiths. These two concepts do not mix at all.***
No I don’t see any inconsistency. It is not only Scripturally supported, it was declared doctrine and practiced by the fledgling Church of the Apostles. To deny that is to deny not only what the Apostles practiced and believed, but also Scriptural verses that support this view.
***With God in control, all of the statements in the Sermon are taken at face value and as a matter of fact, they describe a true believer and what he looks like. But, with man in control, those same statements look like a buffet of choices for any man to partake of.***
With God in total incremental control, the Sermon on the Mount means nothing. If I recall correctly, you consider yourself a true believer. Do you display everything that is contained within the Sermon? If not, then you cannot be a true believer; there is no man that displays them all, therefore no man is a true believer.
That is makes the doctrine of the Reformed impossible. Therefore, you have no option but to swim the Tiber or head East. :)
***Then, by definition, Christ is a failure. How does the Church reconcile that? We say Christ CAN’T fail because He is God.***
God spent the entire OT and most of the New trying to get the Chosen People to be saved and, generally speaking, He failed. That by itself should be proof that He gave us all free will which includes the ability to reject God.
We belong to the Catholic Church; I happen to attend the Roman Rite. If I decided to attend the Russian Orthodox Church starting today, then that is fine and good within the Church.
We have the same doctrine, beliefs, Mass, and Sacraments. Only the drapes are a different colour.
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