Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[hosepipe]

[ But reading the Bible only saves you from ignorance.. Its the Holy Spirit that counts / Sloganisms. Where does, in the Bible, the Holy Spirit say anything about reading the Bible for education? ]

Alamo-girl covered just that boastfully just a few posts above this one.. Actually a couple of times from different directions in two or three posts.. (please refer)..

[ Kind of making your own theology as you go along, aren't you? ]

No... several hundred years of Church History proves what I am saying.. (Millers Church History)

[ So in your version of "Christianity" the Holy Spirit takes orders from Jesus? ]

The Holy Spirit and the Father and Jesus are ONE...
Not one personality but ONE spiritually, in at oneness.. i.e. Atonement..

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

[Alamo-Girl]

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." -- John 17:17

Here Christ mercifully gives us the perfect equation for our lives.

Sanctification = truth = the word of God.

Amen!

Thank you oh so very much for all of your insights and those excellent Scriptures - they were perfect.

Considering His sure promise, why would anyone want to add to - or diminish - the words of God?

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

[kosta50]

Arminianists are One Way of saying they Work their way to Heaven/salvation/re-generation

We don't.

[kosta50]

Jesus!...

Really?

[kosta50]

Alamo-girl covered just that boastfully just a few posts above this one.. Actually a couple of times from different directions in two or three posts.. (please refer)

I don't read Alamo-Girl's posts, boastful or not.

[kosta50]

No... several hundred years of Church History proves what I am saying.. (Millers Church History)

Whatever.

[kosta50]

The Holy Spirit and the Father and Jesus are ONE... Not one personality but ONE spiritually, in at oneness.. i.e. Atonement

You said earlier the Holy Spirit does as Jesus told Him. Now you are telling me the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are one "spiritually?"—i.e. in Atonement!? the Spirit is one with the Father and the Son "spiritually" or should that be "Spiritually"/s? Oh, boy!

And what name does your faith go by? I am afraid to ask. Does it recognize that perhaps the Father, Son and Holy Spirit may be one in essence (i.e. their divinity) [Orthodox/Catholic] rather than "spiritually?" or does it treat them as three separate Persons united in "purpose?" [LDS]

What else do you believe about Jesus Christ (i.e. your Christology), if you don't mind me asking you?

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "But don't you rely on just such "endless verses" to prove the authority of the Church?"

Which verses say the Church has authority? Church authority comes from the Apostles who passed it on to their successors. The bible hints at that, and the Church documents this with earliest writings. From the beginning the Church had "elders" who were in authority.

Well, I know that the Latins rely on a handful of verses for the immense power they claim for their Magisterium. Do I take it that the Orthodox rely more on early extra-scriptural documents for the powers ascribed to your clergy?

Christ serves as an example of how we should try to be. The whole purpose of going to church is not to read endless verses but to worship and praise God, to repent and to try as much as possible to live a Christ-like life. It's a way of life, FK. It's not bible study. Anyone can do bible study.

I agree that worship is why we go to church, but I don't know how proper worship can be done without knowing the word of God. Even if one is relying on extra-scriptural words he is still relying on the words of SOMEONE to know Who he is worshiping. I agree with you if you are saying that Bible study without belief is a waste of time. However, WITH belief it is invaluable to growing in our relationship with God. How can one grow without learning?

[kosta50]

Well, I know that the Latins rely on a handful of verses for the immense power they claim for their Magisterium. Do I take it that the Orthodox rely more on early extra-scriptural documents for the powers ascribed to your clergy?

I am not sure I am following you? What "powers" do the clergy have that are extrascriptural? And while we are on the subject of 'extrascriptural," please find where do the scriptures talk about the "power" ascribed to "sola scriptura?" 

I agree that worship is why we go to church, but I don't know how proper worship can be done without knowing the word of God

How is it that the Church could canonize the NT, yet not understand it, FK? or, worse, how could it know the truth of the NT and express something other than that in its liturgical prayers?

The Apostolic Church knew the word of God from the beginning because the Apostles were there when it was received and the Apostles were there when their successors were ordained to carry on the worship which expresses our belief, and their successors' successors were there and so on to this day.

Our worship comes form Judaism. Our fasting twice a week comes from Judaism. Our scripture readings come from Judaism. Our bowing  to God and kissing of holy objects comes from Judaism. Our incens comes form Judaism. The Eucharist, as a form of offering, comes from Judaism. Our giving thanks before the meals comes from Judaism. Our standing when the Gospels are read comes from Judaism (the Jews stand when the Torah is read). Our singing in the church comes from Judaism. Our calling churches temples (in orthodoxy) comes from Judaism.  Our lighting of candles comes from Judaism. Our priests come from Judaism. Our liturgy comes form Judaism.

The Jews did not have lecture halls; they had synagogues, places of liturgical worship. They distinguished religious classes and study groups from synagogues. Our churches are not lecture halls either. They are places of worship. Our churches are built architecturally to resemble the Temple, not lecture halls. In other words, we are a continuum; not an innovation.

We have the same worship as the Church when it canonized the Bible 1,700 years ago. If the Church was capable of infallibly choosing the Christian canon, then the same faith must have been expressed in that Church's Divine Liturgy. Lex orandi, lex credendi. We believe how we pray.

And nothing is more telling of that truth then to actually attend a Divine Liturgy and pay attention to everything that is sung and said. Whatever is in it, was in it when the Church proclaimed the canon. One mind. One faith. One Church. Unchanged in the East to this day

[Quix]

WITH belief it is invaluable to growing in our relationship with God. How can one grow without learning?

= =

INDEED.

[Forest Keeper]

The way the term "Gnostic" is used around here I suspect the polar opposite would be "Empiricist." An empiricist accepts as certain knowledge only that which is obtained by sensory perception, and to that he adds reason. He excludes Spiritual perception on principle.

Yes, I think you're exactly right. Thanks for your wonderful post. I see what you're talking about every time we are compared to Muslims, which is often. I suppose that without the extra-scriptural Tradition of the Church, everyone else, including other Christians, are all Gnostics.

Conversely, we Christians who have "ears to hear" accept only the words of God as certain knowledge. Sensory perception and reason are greatly subordinated. We walk by faith not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)

Yes, and thanks for the great supporting scripture. I have been reading this conversation and I think you and I may be getting to the same place from slightly different directions. I have been saying that our faith is indeed a reasonable (reasoned) one, but with the prerequisite that we start with Godly presuppositions. These must be given by God. Without them, God's word is nonsense, but with them I think the faith makes perfect sense.

Man is not the "measure" of God.

AMEN! Absolutely true.

[hosepipe]

[ I don't read Alamo-Girl's posts, boastful or not. ]

I meant beautuful... sorry..
A problem there.. what?..

[hosepipe]

You said earlier the Holy Spirit does as Jesus told Him. ]

I didnt say that.. I said authorized.. not told.. The relationship between them is above my pay grade.. I'm nor sure about the seven spirits of God in Revelation either.. The Holy Spirit does as he pleses as far as I know..

[hosepipe]

[ What else do you believe about Jesus Christ (i.e. your Christology), if you don't mind me asking you? ]

Good question.. I'm niether Roman Catholic, Protestant, or EO.. or any other denomiation..
I'm not sure of "what" I am or what I appear to be..

The Messiah came to make ALL religions obsolete, AND DID..
According to the New Testament that is..
i.e. "You MUST be born again"- Jesus..

The Body of Christ, the called out ones(church), or the flock(sheep).. are metaphors about "the family of God".. Which is a "family" and not an organization.. or club.. i.e. like a current church..

I believe every human ever born is a spirit in a body suit.. That they were spirits before incarnation and will be after incarnation.. And are NOW spirits and that is what the metaphor of being born again means.. Realizing you are basically a spirit and not flesh at all.. and should start conducting yourself as an eternal being NOW..

Who is the messiah?.. God coming to this planet personally to encode this message in his parables which are metaphors.. To lead those that are willing into reality.. What reality?.. That they are spirits that will live eternally and much is at stake in this human test for future task to be performed.. What tasks?.. I dunno..

The reason for his doing this is I think to shut the mouth of any that would say(at some time) why didn't you openly.. approach me face to face..

Thats a primer about what I believe about the messiah.. not all but a start to tell it all would not work in this venue.. I skipped over so much.. but you asked..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and for your encouragements!

Yes, I think you're exactly right. Thanks for your wonderful post. I see what you're talking about every time we are compared to Muslims, which is often. I suppose that without the extra-scriptural Tradition of the Church, everyone else, including other Christians, are all Gnostics.

Seems to me it turns on the question, "Who do you believe?"

If a person believes Mohammed, then everyone who does not is an "Infidel."

If a person believes Joseph Smith, then Christians who do not are "Apostate."

If a person believes the dogma of the Catholic Church, then Christians who do not are "Heretic."

If a person believes the Catholic Church has the singular power to impart the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in the sacrament of confirmation, then any non-Catholic Christian who testifies to the indwelling Holy Spirit directly by the grace and power of God must be "Gnostic."

And so on.

I believe God alone. Moreover, I count it all joy when others call me "Apostate" or "Gnostic" or "Heretic" or "Infidel" or whatever pleases them.

Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. - Matthew 5:11-12

Praise God!!!

[hosepipe]

In a family its not what you believe but who you are that counts.. Its not about how smart you are(that you believe this or that) but who in essence you are(born again) that counts..

Many heretics and apostics and cult members may be born again.. since its not about what you believe.. but whom you are.. Some people are not too smart and/or naieve.. and believe strange things compared to to each other..

Thats why Jesus said love God and be "nice" to your neighbor, I think.. We might be living with some of them for eternity.. Even though we labeled them as ugh strange.. and cultic.. God forbid we put a stumbling block before them..

They might stupid but born again.. and are our brother or sister..

[Quix]

INDEED.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

BTW,

Have been worshipping at the computer a lot today . . . but not remotely bowing down to IT! LOL.

I discovered that YOUTUBE has a lot of videos of THE ISAACS and Gaithers etc. and it’s just been a blessing.

Here’s a link to one or two or more:

I SURRENDER ALL BY THE ISAACS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOq7p3RTm5w

IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL BY THE ISAACS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaar6Ij55ig

I HAVE A FATHER WHO CAN BY THE ISAACS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMGzW0fY7s

BLESSED ASSURANCE BY THE ISAACS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE7AGB5nXTs

BLESSED ASSURANCE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgCJlSAwO9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvqx-L3QRg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afzKLHy4KpY&feature=related

[the_conscience]

The Apostolic Church knew the word of God from the beginning because the Apostles were there when it was received and the Apostles were there when their successors were ordained to carry on the worship which expresses our belief, and their successors' successors were there and so on to this day.

No doubt you base this upon incontrovertible empirical data, using the same methodology as your Bible criticism, and have all the evidence to prove that all the rituals and dogma of the Greek church is directly handed down from the Apostles. (BTW, that would exclude any indirect references to old testament Jewish customs)

I'll be waiting.