Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Same with the greek.. The greek language did not have a corresponding word for the hebrew "holy" or the hebrew messiah(i.e. Jesus the Christ).. They had to morph a word which meant a good fellow(man) into Christ.. as well as other words and concepts.. Paul was good at this since he spoke several languages and was schooled in logic by the Rabbis.. He was more "wordly" than the other Apostles..
[ Sure, the Italians spoke Italian, but what did they write in it? ]
Kosta really, surely you know few could even write.. anywhere even in Isreal.. Especially during the dark ages.. In Europe some could barely write.. to transact business but little more.. When colleges for average people were started (by christians) in the United States it shook the world,.. And many others started doing it... slowly of course..
For the time being I will set aside the epistemological arguments since they had already been shown yet unanswered by The Skeptic. As Van Til pointed out and kosta manifested later:
But so soon as you claim that your God has revealed himself in creation, in providence, or in your Scripture, so soon I shall put that revelation to a test by the principle of rational coherence.”“And by that test none of your doctrines are acceptable. All of them are contradictory. No rational man can accept any of them. If your God is eternal, then he falls outside of my experience and lives in the realm of the ‘Beyond,’ of the unknowable. But if he is to have anything to do with the world, then he must himself be wholly within the world. I must understand your God throughout if I am to speak intelligently of any relationship that he sustains to my world and to myself. Your idea that God is both eternal and unchangeable and yet sustains such relationships to the world as are involved in your doctrine of creation and providence, is flatly contradictory.”
All this amounts to saying that the skeptic, the lover of a Chance philosophy, the indeterminist, is at the same time an out-and-out determinist or fatalist. It is to say that the skeptic, the irrationalist, who said that nobody knows what is in the “Beyond,” is at the same time a flaming rationalist. For him only that can be which—so he thinks—he can exhaustively determine by logic must be. He may at first grant that anything may exist, but when he says this he at the same time says in effect that nothing can exist and have meaning for man but that which man himself can exhaustively know. Therefore, for the skeptic, the God of Christianity cannot exist. For him the doctrine of creation cannot be true. There could be no revelation of God to man through nature and history. There can be no such thing as the resurrection of Christ.
Thus our skeptic friends are caught in the their logical positivists tautologies and when asked by several Christians to use their empirical acumen to prove God's existence they run like the devil runs from the cross. Not that I am without sympathy since our Eastern friends have long been indoctrinated by atheistic principles. Be that as it may, since the foolishness of the cross infuriates the natural man, perhaps a more edifying area of discussion lies in the realm of historical theology. Because the canard of Tradition is the weapon of choice of the Greeks and Romanists perhaps we can find some fruit for the Christian in responding to these canards.
The Reformation was a renewal back to the what the early Church fathers believed about the relationship between Scripture and Church, that Scripture and tradition coinhere with the Body of Christ. It was not simply on the level of source (Scripture) and interpretation (tradition) but that Scripture and tradition flow from the same source, the word of God, and both the work of the Holy Spirit. The early fathers held no delusions that tradition was on the same level as revelation and explicitly denied any extra-scriptural traditon. In essence, the early fathers saw the oral traditions as the rule of faith of the Apostles and were keepers of that until such time as canonization was complete. They held no delusions that the rule of faith was the definitive interpretation of Scripture. In summary, the early fathers saw tradition as evidence of God working in his Church not as an extra source of revelation.
As the Catholic theologian George Tavard points out this was the Churches understanding up until around the 14th century when the bastardiztion of tradition started to gain footing. It was around this time the concept of post-apostolic tradition as revelation came to the fore and raised the papal oligarchy as supreme judge of these post-apostolic revelations. This was a view that would be foreign to Aquinas as can be seen when he quotes Augustine as an authority:
“sacred doctrine... properly uses the authority of the canonical Scriptures as an incontrovertible proof, and the authority of the doctors of the Church as one that may properly be used, yet merely as probable. For our faith rests upon the revelation made to the apostles and prophets who wrote the canonical books, and not on the revelations (if any such there are) made to other doctors. Hence Augustine says (Epis. ad Hieron. xix, 1): ‘Only those books of Scripture which are called canonical have I learned to hold in such honor as to believe their authors have not erred in any way in writing them. But other authors I so read as not to deem everything in their works to be true, merely on account of their having so thought and written, whatever may have been their holiness and learning’” (ST I, q. 1, art. 8, ad 2).
In summary, the late medieval bastardization of Scripture and tradition lead to the privatizing of the Holy Spirit to the papal oligarchy, the denial that all doctrinal truths are found in Scripture and the addition of extra-scriptural post apostolic tradition on the same level as revelation in opposition to what the early fathers believed.
Unfortunately this is not the end of the story. As can be seen by the attitudes of our Greek and Romanist friends the relation between Scripture and tradition is now evolving to the point where neither is a final source but now the magisterium can rewrite it's own official (infallible) dogma overriding both Scripture and tradition. (As we see going on with the low view of Scripture being promoted)
Much of the New Testament was written in Joiner greek (vernacular greek).. Not the greek of debate and sophistry.. Do see a message here?.. The Bible has since been translated into hundreds of vernacular languages.. Since when?.. Since the reformers made the Bible available to all.. Else it might have never been..
Not only that but written and verbal greek is so rich it takes many sentences sometimes to translate one greek word.. With the additional tenses and construction of the "words".. But you can get the sense of it all by translating one english word for one greek word, although not usually completely accurate.. Thats why even primitive languages can get the sense of the gospel.. in their own language.. Since thats the only language they speak.. Even some translators have to create an alphabet to even write it down.. or translate it..
Locking the Bible up in Latin was a travesty.. COuld have been for Job Security.. or not.. But I think so.. Millions of people worldwide have learned to read just so they could read the Bible.. even today that happens.. Happened in Germany too because of Luthers work.. many learned to read just for that purpose..
corr: KOINE greek...
I just see the whole thing more in terms of English today than someone specifically "locking up" the Bible. Just as someone can't get around knowing English if he or she wants to pursue a career in science, technology, computers, medicine, aviation, etc. the same was true of Latin. It was the international language of academia, law and sciences in the west.
Those who used Latin could read Latin bibles if they wanted to (chances are they were available at universities).
I am only pointing to the factors that created the "lockup" as something that evolved, as not as a conspiracy, but a trend that happened before and has happened since in different time with different languages, and is happening right now.
When colleges for average people were started (by christians) in the United States it shook the world,.. And many others started doing it... slowly of course
Because the US grew increasingly more influential in the world.
By this logic, we should have a 100% college minimum compulsory education for everyone, incluidng the homeless, or just to flip hamburgers in the near-by fast food joint.
By the next century at least a masters will be required and by the century after that a PhD. What's the point? It's just artificially created education-inflation for profit.
I have years of education and I don't use but a tiny fraction of it in my profession. Most of it just looks good on my walls.
This system of (over)education doesn't necessarily produce smarter people. It doesn't necessarily produce better people just because they can read the Bible (assuming they read it correctly, which is unlikely). There is so much to know, no one individual can digest it all, so ignorance rules more than ever.
Besides, it makes no difference if those who couldn't read the Bible can read it now. The Reformed believe that they have either been saved or damned before they were even born and nothing in this world can change that.
But does that affect their salvation?
No, just a realist who understands that the world is as it is even if we don't understand it, and that our inability to comprehend is filled with our fancy to "make sense" of it.
Locust is not a wrath of God; it happens every year all over the world. To ancient Jews earthquakes and lightening and thunder were all "signs from heavens" that God was "angry." Ignorance is great, because it allows one to make whatever he or she wants to make of it.
The Reformation was a renewal back to the what the early Church fathers believed about the relationship between Scripture and Church
Dream on. You couldn't per chance provide some examples?
They held no delusions that the rule of faith was the definitive interpretation of Scripture
Definitive, ey? One would think that if you have faith you don't need anything else, including the scriptures. The early Christians didn't have the New Testament and yet died for their faith.
At which point does the "definitive interpretation of Scripture" become essential to one's faith? Are you saying that the early Christians who couldn't read and write didn't understand their faith correcty? Or did they get just "enough" when +Paul wrote his epistles? Or perhaps when +Mark came out with his gospel? Or maybe when the synoptic gospels were written? Or did it have to wait another 30 years until +John finished his?
At which point did this "rule of faith" become fulfilled for the Christians? Or did they not have faith until Martin Luther came along?
It was around this time the concept of post-apostolic tradition as revelation came to the fore and raised the papal oligarchy as supreme judge of these post-apostolic revelations. This was a view that would be foreign to Aquinas
Yes it is and it is foreign to the Orthodox as well, and has been always. The Catholic Church has since scaled down most of the imperial papacy element and is no doubt once again becoming more patristic. That's ecclesiology, not necessarily theology.
The point is that our (Orthodox and Catholic) Trinitarian and Christological dogmas are the same. How they discipline their Church and what roles they assign to different people in it, is none of our concern. We are only interested in sharing the same faith (if possible), not how they arrange their furniture.
As can be seen by the attitudes of our Greek and Romanist friends the relation between Scripture and tradition is now evolving to the point where neither is a final source but now the magisterium can rewrite it's own official (infallible) dogma overriding both Scripture and tradition
First of all, the Holy Tradition is seen as parallel with the Scriptures in the Catholic Church; the Sciptures are considered the central element of the Holy Tradition in the Orthodox Church. Second, the final source of authority in the Church is Christ Himself. We all recognize that. Third, it was the Church that made infallible decision to canonize the infallible word of God into a bible that you read.
I can't speak for others, but our liturgy and what we believe (because we believe what we pray) is from that same period of time and mindset when the Church canonized the Bible, and remains the same liturgy and mindset to this day.
That makes us confident that what we Orthodox have been teaching and believed for the past 1700 years is what the Church believed everywhere and always, and is the same Church that canonized the Bible. We have not changed in that respect.
Worshipping the BIBLE like a few reformers do could cost them the "prize"..
But reading the Bible only saves you from ignorance..
Its the Holy Spirit that counts.. Some plant the seed, others water the seed, but only GOD gives the "increase"..
The Holy Spirit saves from perdition in Jesus name..
because Jesus authorized him to do so..
CAUTION: Where ever TWO meet in my name there am I in the midst of them.. Jesus thru the Holy Spirit..
"WE" are being "WATCHED"...
Again I aver as I did in post 2159 that God is not stumped by languages and translations or the actions or inactions of beings, physical or spiritual.
The words of God are not merely compilations of written or verbal language symbols – they are spirit and they are life.
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. - John 6:51-58
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:60-63
Does anyone really believe than any being has the power to destroy, mute or hide the words of God - or in any way thwart His will?
As long as there are Christians who love God surpassingly above all else, which is the one and only Great Commandment (Matthew 22:37-38) there will always be someone qualified to feed His sheep. That is an often missed Spiritual Truth in this passage:
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. – John 21:15-19
Does anyone really believe God is powerless to satisfy the spiritual hunger and thirst of His own adopted children by reason of a vulgar language or bad translation - deafness, darkness or any thing else?
Does anyone really believe than any being has the power to destroy, mute or hide the words of God - or in any way thwart His will?
As long as there are Christians who love God surpassingly above all else, which is the one and only Great Commandment (Matthew 22:37-38) there will always be someone qualified to feed His sheep. That is an often missed Spiritual Truth in this passage:
= = =
INDEED . . . even the rocks would cry out . . .
Thx.
Its possible you may not have a clue what drives the reformed.. The reformed run the gamut from salvation by works(various types(Armenian)) to salvation by faith(various types(Calvinist, more or less))..
Roman Catholic and EO (and others) seem to be Arminianists...
Working their way to heaven.. A hard job if you can get it..
I am of course neither..
Thank you for your encouragements!
How can they be something that came after them? Don't be silly.
Who cares what drives them?
Sloganisms. Where does, in the Bible, the Holy Spirit say anything about reading the Bible for education?
Kind of making your own theology as you go along, aren't you?
The Holy Spirit saves from perdition in Jesus name.. because Jesus authorized him to do so
So in your version of "Christianity" the Holy Spirit takes orders from Jesus?
Arminianists are One Way of saying they Work their way to Heaven/salvation/re-generation.. Salvation by works..
Jesus!...
Does anyone really believe than any being has the power to destroy, mute or hide the words of God - or in any way thwart His will?
AMEN!
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." -- John 17:17
Here Christ mercifully gives us the perfect equation for our lives.
Sanctification = truth = the word of God.
After all, even the darkest of ages, God always keeps a remnant for Himself!
Amen! A remnant named from before the foundation of the world for His glory alone.
And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you... Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:3-4;9-10 "Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
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