Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
DING DING DING DING!!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
BINGO!
lol.
I see you continue to post the “rants” of your dear friend. I’m pretty sure his first rant from Lima set a Freeper Religion Forum record for being pulled. It’s sad that uneducated people like him have followings.
Care to display evidence for your historical claims? Oh, that’s right, you can’t. Hurts when your church history comes from Jack Chick, and your pastor friend from lalaland.
He can’t, but its fun to toss around wild accusations.
>>>Evidently, the Religion Forum has gotten a bit more “sporty” since I quit posting in it. Let me know when the call to fix bayonets is issued.<<
Amen, Brother.
“Fix bayonets!”
To be frank, I tire of Catholic bashers. They’re not worth the effort of trying to argue seriously with them.
A lot of Prottys feel similarly about a lot of the RC edifice reps.
Impressive.
So, is the assertion that we can expect a
—new leaf—
on that score on this thread?
I note that when you want to back up your claim that Calvin's God is not the God of Scripture you turn to the Catechism, not Scripture. Interesting.
In any event, the author of the article does not comment so much on what the official position of your Church is via the Catechism. Instead, he relates what he saw with his own eyes in terms of actual PRACTICE by Catholics. Would it be true that a "good" Catholic, or a Catholic in "good standing" would not spit in the face of a holding of the Catechism? That is, I take it to mean that if those the author observed really were bowing down to graven images, that you would say they were "bad" Catholics, is that right? Their practices would not reflect the teaching of the Church. Let's see how that works out. From the Catechism:
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. 158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159
I hope we wouldn't have to argue over how well this is observed among the Catholic faithful. So AGAIN, on the one hand we have the teaching of the Church, and way over on the other side we have the actual practice of Catholics. The author of the article was obviously talking about the latter, what he saw with his own eyes. Therefore, your argument that if the Church teaches it then it is followed by the laity doesn't hold water.
BTW, who is "the Church" to you? I get confused all the time when talking to Catholics about this. Some say that means the hierarchy in the ivory towers alone, and some say it is all Catholics. I think we just saw how it cannot be said that "the Church" accepts the Catechism if "the Church" includes the laity. (That's not to mention that "the Church" would also reject the Pope by the same criterion.)
And you know what? I’m not even Catholic. So that’s two silly assumptions on your part ... and counting. Please stop digging, brother.
BTW,
I don’t see posters from my perspective as RC bashers.
We do vigorously attack what we see as
VERY UNBIBLICAL IDOLATRY AND BLASPHEMY.
RC reps hereon seem to have a genetic incapacity to distinguish between their persons as individuals vs those things which they think, believe, hold dear etc.
Products, pontifications, beliefs, thoughts, opinions etc. are not particularly sacred, sacrosanct, above and beyond all question etc. We are sorry ?Mary? did not teach you better. But ridiculous pontifications will be treated as ridiculous pontifications—NOT as holy writ.
AS well we and any Christian should in any Brother’s life.
. . . if they care, that is.
The RC edifice represented hereon seems to have an extremely difficult to impossible attitude toward
ACCEPTING, DEALING WITH, HANDLING REMOTELY WELL
such things as . . . Protty’s conviction based solidly on evidence and Scripture that . . .
1. The RC edifice did NOT begin until about 300-400 years after Christ when the Roman contingent of Christendom had sufficient political power to ‘lord it over’ the rest of Christendom, more or less wholesale.
2. The Maryolatry stuff is outrageously UNBiblical AND OUTRAGEOUSLY hostile to a number of clear Scriptures AND hostile to God’s priorities in such matters as well as God’s requirments and boundaries in such matters.
3. The arrogance of the RC edifice is legendary in a list of ways and persistently demonstrated hereon in the form of thin skinned sensibilities and running to daddy RM at the drop of a hat for the thinnest of excuses. This is the real world. It is not a sheltered cloister nor the pillow on Mary’s lap. It’s the real world. We fiercely disagree based on what we are convinced is SOLID HISTORICAL TRUTH AS WELL AS SOLID BIBLICAL TRUTH. Deal with it—like adults instead of whining 2 year olds.
4. IF the RC edifice represented hereon is determined to post fiercely provocative, idolatrous, blasphemous paeons to Mary in open forum contexts . . . they can expect fierce responses. We owe our Lord and the lurkers that much to stand up for truth against such hideous UNBiblical hogwash.
5. The idolatrous nature of the Maryolatry stuff is obvious to virtually any fair-minded person who’s paid the least bit of attention to the religion forum for most of FR’s existence. The number of lines devoted to Mary vs devoted to Jesus—I think totally—but certainly in the open forum has to be outrageously beyond those devoted exclusively to Jesus. There’s hardly a week that has gone by without that being abundantly true. Still the RC edifice hereon would have us believe that Jesus is first. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. But actually, hereon, the actions and words concur saying the same idolatrous, blasphemous stuff.
6. PRETENDING that pontifications, thoughts, feelings, sensibilities, preferences, opinions, traditions, dogma etc. are all HOLY OF HOLIES SACROSANCT AND UNTOUCHABLE by any disagreeable comment is childish, idiotic, silly, unrealistic, arrogant . . . on the face of it. The RC reps hereon get ABSOLUTELY FOAMING AT THE MOUTH OUTRAGED IF the Prottys gets remotely close to even hinting of taking such a stance. Great double standard, that.
7. Ridiculous posts and attitudes WARRANT, EARN, DESERVE absurd responses, outrageous responses. What a surprise. Grow up. Expect it. Very often just the title of RC posts hereon is outrageous—outrageously UNBIBLICAL, outrageously provocative; outrageously tweaky . . . etc. Yet when we respond accordingly the indignant affronted response is how dare we think of it as it is. Cute.
8. IF this thread had been titled as a lot of RC threads seem to be deliberately titled . . . it would have carried a title something like: HORRID MEXICAN AND PERUVIAN ROMAN CATHOLIC IDOLATROUS BLASPHEMOUS PRACTICES OBSERVED FIRST HAND. But the poster was more gentle than that.
9. I’m used to being personally bashed for a long list of reasons—some rational and some less so. Kind of goes with being me. However, I learned a long time ago as a Pentecostal—folks were either wrong or they were right or they were a mixture of right AND wrong about Pentecostalism in general and particularly about my specific expression of it. If they were wrong wholesale—it was their problem—all the more so if I tried to set them right and they insisted on a wrong perspective.
10. IF they were both wrong AND right, I tried to learn as much as I could just as I did even when they were wholesale wrong. If they were right, I tried to learn as much as I could. I learned to avoid treating every whiff of displeasure about Pentecostalism as a personal insult—EVEN WHEN IT WAS INTENDED AS A PERSONAL INSULT. Pentecostalism is my belief system. It’s not my identity in any exclusively personal essence sense.
11. My God is bigger even than Pentecostalism. My relationship with God is bigger than Pentecostalism. My worth to God is bigger than Pentecostalism. God is CERTAINLY bigger than assaults on me over Pentecostalism.
12. SURE I COULD get all bent out of shape every time I turned around because folks didn’t realize that Pentecostalism is the most accurate reading of Scripture and Christian life in a long list of ways. So what. What would that prove? That I had thin skin; needed to obsessively jump to conclusions in relentless knee jerk fashion and run around like chicken little delcaring that Christianity was falling because everyone didn’t believe exactly like me? Grow up, Quix, big deal.
13. This is a rare opportunity to share time and space hereon. All the rarer to have a diversity of Christianity represented hereon with shared conservative values. We do not NEED to relentlessly shoot each other with Bible verses or magicsterical pontifications or twisted histories or any other nonsense. Doing so can’t be all that blessed to God. Nor to Mary, for that matter, IF she is allowed to know anything about any such mortal nonsense in her period of rest.
14. It is reasonable for us to use one another as foils to some degree as we write to the lurkers. That’s too big a mission field for any serious Christian of any flavor to pass up if they are thinking and caring for the lost, confused, undecided . . . at all. But to demand an exclusive perch on the highest obelisk from which to talk down to all others of the slightest difference in persuasion and perspective . . . . . in the haughtiest, most self-righteous tones. . . . is to make of one’s self an outrageously pontifical piggish prig—and deserves to be treated accordingly. .
15. It’s not so reasonable to treat the other side as scum of the earth BECAUSE they don’t construe reality exactly as we do or because they won’t talk to us as we demand to be addressed. THEY, are the THEY. WE are ourselves. Clones we ain’t and aren’t going to be. Get over it. Grow up. Deal with it.
16. As to being worth the effort of trying to dialogue seriously . . . any human being was worth Christ’s horrid death. I suspect He expects us to treat folks as worth more than haughty disdain, as well—loving our enemies kind of requires some level of that, somehow.
17. In any case, I suspect many on my side will continue to “BASH” what we perceive, observe, construe as idolatry and blasphemy. RC’s can mistakenly pretend that we are BASHING THEIR PERSONS, THEIR ESSENCE, THEIR INDIVIDUAL IDENTITIES . . . and wail and whine accordingly. But that won’t impress us in the least.
18. If the RC edifice, dogmas, sensibilities, preferences, constructions on reality are so fragile and so easily woundable . . . so seemingly devastatingly . . . then they weren’t worth much in the first place. If such beliefs and practices are worth anything, then I’d think that they would be worth at least holding somewhat maturely, somehat loosely in terms of dialogue with others who see the world differently.
19. Failure to hold opinions, debatable constructions on reality etc. at least somewhat loosely . . . is itself evidence of idolatry. None of us has an absolute corner on reality, truth, righteousness . . . acting otherwise is outrageous arrogance.
20. The choice resides with each of us. We can be even fierce proponents of our perspectives. But if we wish to act like 4 year old school yard bullies with a huge chip on our shoulders . . . then we can expect that sooner or later, some sharp words, swords or arrows will pierce the chip or knock it off and deservedly so.
Thanks for the clarification.
Great job of . . . posting as though.
From a friend of mine in the Netherlands.
################
Fw: “Killed By friendly fire”
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:32:22 +0100
1/16/2008 12:52 AM
This evening I was talking to our friend Teus about the army of the Lord and the so-called forerunners that are waiting for new orders!
They must wait a little longer, because the Lord is bringing His Army into one accord in open line!
Suddenly, the Lord brought an incident which happened with our soldiers into my mind!
Two of them where shot by so-called “friendly fire”.
I am sitting at the computer and I am waiting for the Word He wants to speak:
“My children, there is a lot going on.
My faithful ones are almost ready to go!
But there are two divisions in My Army.....
There are the forerunners, the ones who were on the front, calling for others to wake up, while others were still stuck in their rules and doctrines.
And I want to say about those...
That I make them ready now, to get them out of their comfort zones, to also stand up for ME!
I need to say to My forerunners to stand still for a little moment!
They are almost hit by by their own fire!
Perhaps they wonder why this is necessary, this period of waiting.....this barren time,
But My army must be one, they must understand each other and listen to Me!
Also, I have a word of admonishment:
Some of My children are shooting their own brothers and sisters with “friendly fire”and ammunition from My Word!
They use My Word to judge and I do not tell them to do this!
Give Me the space to do what I need to do through My Spirit, to make them all ready for what is coming!
Do not wound each other! Stop firing your judgements like bullets!
An army that wounds or kills each other will become totally powerless and it will be impossible to work with each other!
Give your heart to Me, tell Me what is eating you....and what you think you see in that other person that you think is so wrong....
I can read the heart, only I know who is faithful......
You are not each others’ enemy!
For your wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers,
against the world’s rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
You do not fight against each other!
You are tearing down My Body!
Stop doing this! I am gathering you!
The forerunners need to stop and wait for a while so the others have the change to prepare
themselves for what will soon begin!
Are you ready?
Do not be scared. I live within you. My Spirit that resides in you is powerful!
Don’t be ruthless either- that is also not good!
My army needs to listen to My voice and then act on what I tell them to do!
The bullets that you will need to shoot must be ordered by Me, out of My Word, that will convict those
I have prepared to receive them, and it will change circumstances.
Love one another!
Know I see everything and I hear everything!
Each word that you speak not according to My Will is hurting My heart!
Every word that hurts one of My children hurts Me also!
How can you say that you love me, if you hate Me living inside of your brother?
You walk in darkness then, not in My light!
Repent from this evildoing, give your hatred and bitterness and jealousy to Me!
I will replace this with My Love!”
Your Father!
1 John 2.
8 Again, I write a new commandment to you, which is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shines. 9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother, is in the darkness even until now. 10 He who loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no occasion for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness, and doesn’t know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
3. 1 John 3,15 , 20
He who doesn’t love his brother remains in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.
20 If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn’t love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 This commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should also love his brother.
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Catharina Schouten
www.tesjoeva.nl
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Great question --
Oh Really!!! So just when is telling the truth to someone a violation of any commandment??? Is bearing false witness and promoting a pagan rituals as acceptable Christian practices an act of love in your church??? Perhaps you should meditate upon the following:
"Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth." [I Corinthians 13:6]
"A lying tongue hates those who are afflicted by it, and a flattering mouth works ruin" [Proverbs 26:28]
Where there is no truth there is no love, and you cannot have love without the truth.
Is the worship of idols the worship of demons, according to scripture??? Yes or No --
You can answer that question in truth or in love. Either way it should be the same answer.
To what historical claims do you refer? Big assumption on your part to think my church (which one is mine?) was founded by on rests on teaching from Jack Chick. Where is “lalaland” and how do you infer that’s where my friend Randall is from?
You think Randall’s observations are rants because you choose to take offense at what is happening under the guise of the RCC outposts in Latin America? If you fear God and love Him, you should expose false teaching and pagan practices within your church as we do within my church (guess which one it is).
The first report from Randall I posted was pulled because RCC guard dogs (that’s merely a metaphor - I’m NOT calling anyone a dog) whined (even if he acts like one) to the FR moderators.
It appears RCC guard dogs would rather attack people who expose paganism instead of test the report to see if it’s true and, if there’s truth therein, work to rebuke the evil men do in the name of the RCC. IF the guard dog loves God more than he loves the RCC.
>Regarding Catholic iconography - is this not a violation of the command to NOT make graven images for people to worship?<
We don’t “worship” the icons.
Sorry for your ignorance.
Read that same page in the Bible and notice the instructions for carving, engraving, and ornation of the Tabernacle.
How do you know people in Mexico City and other cities do not worship these “tokens”? Sure seems that every time someone imagines the face of Mary in a tortilla people build a shrine and worship the tortilla. (I wonder how these folks know what Mary looked like.) If people in my church were to do such a thing, we would deny that it happens - we would rebuke the person for idolatry.
uh - Christians are not instructed to build temples, as we each are the temple of God and, having the Spirit of God within us we need to other temple. “God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing”
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