Replies

I Said: “culling our doctrine for “Gotchas” and saying things designed to destroy faith.”

You Said: I consider it more an attempt to cut out the cancerous part of an otherwise healthy body. Had Joseph Smith never existed, would you be an atheist? I don’t think so, I think you would have been a Christian. So we are by no means trying to destroy faith, only cut out a false faith that we view as cancerous.

Actually, if Mormonism never existed, I would probably be Buddhist, the philosophy is great, the logic is irrefutable, and Christianity has way to many contradictions without the Book of Mormon to add it's testimony and clear up some things.

But hey, that's just my opinion of what i would do, I am sure many here are convinced they know far better than I what I would do for they are "Christians"

You Said: Here’s your problem DU,

Right here Most anti's would be screaming bloody murder and asking for my post to be pulled, LOL Antis are such pansies about that., well, go on

You Said: to be a Mormon you must effectively condemn the rest of us to hell.

Bzzt Wrong Again!

Mormon "Hell" or outer darkness is reserved for those who know without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the savior, and then rebel against him any way. Please do not take this the "Wrong way" you just don't qualify, and frankly, neither do I.

You Said: Otherwise, if the Old and New Testament were sufficient, what need would there be for Joseph Smith [except to introduce inconsequential polygamy and baptism of the dead]? In other words, you believe the rest of us are failed Mormons (not failed Christians).

Actually, you have to try to fail, and Antis who are not Ex Mormons are not "Failed Mormons", Ex Mormons are "Failed Momrons" simply because they no longer are Mormon, even if they don't go anti.

You Said: If the Joseph Smith myth collapses, you are left with traditional Christianity, so the only reason you would defend the JS fabrications is if you thought traditional Christianity was insufficient to get a human to heaven. Therefore you aren’t really a Christian, you are a Joseph Smithian.

That was an amazing exercise in building theory on theory to arrive at a conclusion of unmistakably questionable accuracy.

I am a christian for I believe in Jesus Christ. Period. I also believe Joseph Smith was a prophet who served Jesus Christ and did his bidding. Traditional Christianity is not magic, it's tradition, traditional Buddhism is not magic it's tradition.

It boils down to this, was there a falling away as was predicted in the Bible? 2 Thes. 2:3

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

My logic on this is simple:
If there was no falling away, then the Catholic church is still the True church of God and all protestants will be damned to hell right along side the Mormons.

IF there was a falling away, then reform is not enough, for once the authority to act in God's name is lost, regaining it takes God or angels he has sent giving it to men to restore it to the earth. The protestant churches do not claim such an event, thus they are not God's church.

Either there was, or there was not fall, and in either case the protestants are wrong. The catholics in my opinion, have way too many unexplained inconsistencies, like the Nicene creed suddenly appearing in 325 AD when the Apostles never said half of what they are assuming in the Council of Nicea.

Either which way, I tell you of a truth, if you do manage in destroying my testimony of The Book of Mormon you will also have destroyed the credibility of the testimony I bear of Jesus Christ.

Let me give you an example, IF you have a Born again and you manage to convince them that the Bible is a sinful book, they will cease to believe in Jesus Christ.
Similarly, if you convince a Mormon that the Book of Mormon isn't true, and that is how they received their testimony of Jesus, you have just created yet another Atheist. I don't think the antis have thought this approach through.

Either which way, I tell you of a truth, if you do manage in destroying my testimony of The Book of Mormon you will also have destroyed the credibility of the testimony I bear of Jesus Christ.

But if the faith you have in the person you identify as Jesus Christ is not the real Jesus Christ, then you have been set on the path to the truth.

Admittedly when I discovered the fraud that Mormonism was, I was devastated and for a season I became an Atheist. But God led me to a saving faith in the Real Jesus Christ (not the spirit brother of Lucifer, but the Creator [not organizer] of the Universe and the One True and Living God Almighty who became man (not the man who became a God).

"If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Mat 6:23.

My testimony is that the light that was in me when I was a Mormon was darkness. I was blind, but now I see.

The fact is that you have faith in "A Jesus Christ" but I don't believe you have a faith in "THE Jesus Christ". The Mormon Jesus Christ is a wholly different being than the Jesus Christ of True Biblical Christianity.

FC: I consider it more an attempt to cut out the cancerous part of an otherwise healthy body. Had Joseph Smith never existed, would you be an atheist? I don’t think so, I think you would have been a Christian. So we are by no means trying to destroy faith, only cut out a false faith that we view as cancerous.

DU:Actually, if Mormonism never existed, I would probably be Buddhist, the philosophy is great, the logic is irrefutable, and Christianity has way to many contradictions without the Book of Mormon to add it’s testimony and clear up some things. But hey, that’s just my opinion of what i would do, I am sure many here are convinced they know far better than I what I would do for they are “Christians”

Actually, you have just stated what we all knew but you have been too sly to admit. Mormonism really has nothing to do with Christianity, it is at best Joseph Smithianism. If the default position, should Joseph Smith turn out to be a charlatan, is to become Buddhist, then there is no Christ in your christianity and your professions of faith are a fraud.

FC: Here’s your problem DU,
DU:Right here Most anti’s would be screaming bloody murder and asking for my post to be pulled, LOL Antis are such pansies about that., well, go on

That’s ridiculous. In the past, you’ve tried to get me outright banned a number of times and censored at least twice on this thread alone. I have not reciprocated.

DU: I am a christian for I believe in Jesus Christ. Period. I also believe Joseph Smith was a prophet who served Jesus Christ and did his bidding. Traditional Christianity is not magic, it’s tradition, traditional Buddhism is not magic it’s tradition.

Doublespeak is what it is. By your own words, if Joseph Smith fails, you become a Buddhist. Jesus Christ doesn’t even fit into your world as a default position.

DU: My logic on this is simple:
If there was no falling away, then the Catholic church is still the True church of God and all protestants will be damned to hell right along side the Mormons.

Except Protestants didn’t really fall away, more like they stepped aside from some practices. It’s still all the Catholic church, the community of believers.

DU: IF there was a falling away, then reform is not enough, for once the authority to act in God’s name is lost, regaining it takes God or angels he has sent giving it to men to restore it to the earth. The protestant churches do not claim such an event, thus they are not God’s church.

Well damn! And I mean damn damn damn! Because Mormon’s are a faith of works, I can see how you would believe that. But I seem to think faith in Christ’s forgiveness absolves anyone of their sins. That is of course our problem with Mormonism, apparently you can’t be saved unless there is some intercession by Joseph Smith (else you wouldn’t at heart be a Buddhist).

DU: Either there was, or there was not fall, and in either case the protestants are wrong. The catholics in my opinion, have way too many unexplained inconsistencies, like the Nicene creed suddenly appearing in 325 AD when the Apostles never said half of what they are assuming in the Council of Nicea.

Yeah sure, I guess God must have told you this when he was talking to you alone in your room. Or maybe you read it in some golden plates you found out in the woods somewhere.

DU:Either which way, I tell you of a truth, if you do manage in destroying my testimony of The Book of Mormon you will also have destroyed the credibility of the testimony I bear of Jesus Christ.

Once again, it all revolves around you and Joseph Smith. Your testimony depends solely on the validity of Joseph Smith, who is the one I assail (I have said nary a peep about the Biblical sources of faith, others here are better at that and I defer to their insight).

DU: Let me give you an example, IF you have a Born again and you manage to convince them that the Bible is a sinful book, they will cease to believe in Jesus Christ.

Except I haven’t done that, and I don’t believe the Bible is a failed document (as do you, else there’d be no need for the BOM).

DU:Similarly, if you convince a Mormon that the Book of Mormon isn’t true, and that is how they received their testimony of Jesus, you have just created yet another Atheist. I don’t think the antis have thought this approach through.

I have thought it through, my boss is an atheist ex-Mormon after all and I’ve seen the effects first hand of what happens when people find out they’ve been duped by a peep-stone gazer. However, showing the BOM is false leaves the default position of - Christianity as revealed in the Bible - it is not the same as trying to debunk the Bible itself. Some Mormon apostates do become atheists, but I believe that that is generally a rest stop on the path to regaining their core Christian faith. I have high hope for my boss.

I also can’t believe that propping up people in a false hope that Joseph Smith was some faultless demi-god does anything but promote spiritual agony and doubt. Like I said, I view this as cutting out a cancer, not an attempt to kill the spirit, though I concede the cure is painful.