Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism

Auhtor's website ^ | September 15, 2007 | G. Richard Jansen

[Elsie]

Let me interrupt:

P-Marlow, I understand that you believe you are right here, but I also believe I am right here, one day, hopefully before your death, you will truly understand my faith and my perspective, until then, Go with God.

Painters, when composing a picture, tend to look at the scene from VARIOUS 'perspectives'.

Do not stand in one spot all the time, for you may be missing a lot.

[Elsie]

You keep expecting God's use of time to be the same as ours, it shows something, but not what you think it does.

I think you answered a question that you considered SHOULD have been asked; intead of THIS one...

So IF there was a falling away as mormonism contends, then the man of sin was revealed, the son of perdition is known. WHO is/was it?

[Elsie]

No, I just with there was a truth in advertising law for people talking about other peoples' religion, ...

Heck, I wish there was one where folks had to admit the truth about their own!

[Elsie]

The problem I have with discussing mormonism with mormons is that they deny everything that their apostles and prophets have been teaching for the last century and a half.

DETAILS!!

Just 'cause you got facts; don't mean we gotta address them!

--MormonDude(No; my real name is NOT Joe Friday!)

[Elsie]

If not then please cease to explain what she "Meant" by things as only she can actually tell us that.

Then how can YOU "answer" her posts?

Burning again?

[Elsie]

 

 If not then please cease to explain what she "Meant" by things as only she can actually tell us that.

 

1,392 posted on 11/30/2007 5:52:04 PM CST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")

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To: MHGinTN

First of all, out of common courtesy, I would ask you to never call me son. By the tone of your posts I surmise you are quite a bit younger than I.

 

 

 You and DU need to get together.  Either we can understand what a poster types, or not.

[Elsie]

You just a whippersnapper!

[Elsie]

You and your damned FACTS again!!

—MormonDude(Help! How can I keep coming up with answers for this stuff?)

[Elsie]

Did He ever indicate that variations by man were o.k.? My studies of the Bible say absolutely not.

 

Then why do you guys not follow this list?

 

 

Acts 15

 1.  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
 2.  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
 3.  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
 4.  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
 5.  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
 6.  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
 7.  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
 8.  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
 9.  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
 10.  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 11.  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
 12.  Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
 13.  And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
 14.  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
 15.  And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
 16.  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
 17.  That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
 18.  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
 19.  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
 20.  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
 21.  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 22.  Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
 23.  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
 24.  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
 25.  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
 26.  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 27.  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
 28.  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
 29.  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 30.  So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
 31.  Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
 32.  And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
 33.  And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
 34.  Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

[Elsie]

Did He ever indicate that variations by man were o.k.? My studies of the Bible say absolutely not.

 

Strange, my bible says this:

 

Romans 14

 

 1.  Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
 2.  One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
 3.  The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
 4.  Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 5.  One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
 6.  He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 7.  For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
 8.  If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 
 9.  For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

HMmmm.... variations in doctrine.

[Elsie]

That notwithstanding, I won’t stoop to denigrate your church. Not very Christ like in my humble opinion.

 

No need to: already been done.

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” 
 

[greyfoxx39]

Do we pray to a man? Do we do our ordinances in the name of a man? Is the name of our church the name of a man? Do we believe man atoned for our sins? Christ is the head of our church. Not man. Lay off the anti sites, they do nothing for your reputation.

LDS HYMN #27 "PRAISE TO THE MAN"

1) Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2) Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

3) Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

4) Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

 

TIS THE SEASON.....ADMINISTRATION BUILDING OF BYU, MORMON UNIVERSITY:

[Elsie]

1,396 posted on 11/30/2007 7:33:53 PM CST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)

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To: MHGinTN

I didn’t figure you would answer. Have fun!

1,400 posted on 11/30/2007 8:08:46 PM CST by Reno232

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WOW!!! You waited a whole 35 minutes!!!

 

I didn’t figure you would answer. Have fun!

[Elsie]

"That notwithstanding, I won’t stoop to denigrate your church." ... very satanic, to claim you aren't doing exactly what you say would be 'not very Christ-like', yet post after Mormonism post seeks to sow doubt as to the efficacy of the books in the Bible, sow doubt  that salvation may be found in the preaching of the Gospel apart from Mormonism heresies, and seed the discourse with heresies from an adulterous peepstone conman, while all the while claiming you are not denigrating Christianity, merely spreading the love by offering a cultish way to find God by asking for a sign 'if the book of mormon is not true.'

 

 

Some things NEVER change!!

 

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Genesis 3:1

 

  Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

 He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
 

 

 

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[Elsie]

 P-Marlowe: ....most disingenuous religion on the planet.

 

Reno232:  We believe the Bible to be the word of God.

 

 

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.

They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.

They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

   1 We believe in god, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the holy Ghost.
   2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
   3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   8 We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

 

  P-Marlowe: you might just be right!

Reno232:  We believe the Bible to be the word of God.

[Elsie]

What’s disengenous is that supposedly you’re an ex-member & you would know that statement is a bald faced lie.

(You may have missed the hyperbole in the statement.)

[Elsie]

 Do we pray to a man? Do we do our ordinances in the name of a man?

 

 

"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--Brigham Young

(JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224).

 

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

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Dear Reader: what does it sound like to YOU?

[Elsie]

Lay off the anti sites, they do nothing for your reputation.

It seems that offical LDS records don't do too much for YOURS!

[Elsie]

The disingenuousness of the Mormons lies in their refusal to acknowledge the teachings of their past apostles and prophets and their insistence that what is clearly Mormon Doctrine is either not Mormon doctrine or is somehow misunderstood by those who call them on it. It is endemic throughout these threads.

Ya think???

[Elsie]

 

 Comments on:

 

No need to answer

 

Answering the question SHOULD have been asked.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8&feature=related