Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins
busy with a project, so short:
BOM Moroni 10:3-5
using cultic literature to prove the Bible won’t work.
“You state that our beliefs contradict the Bible. That’s your opinion, nothing else”
You left out all of orthodox Christianity over centuries -
millenia! slight oversight.
“You rarely do likewise other than to say that when we’re ready, the answers will appear”
I only say that to you Reno. Only you. That day will come.
“There are many things in the Bible that could be taken as contradictions”
anything that “could” be taken as a contradiction but has
any other possible non-contradictory explanation, isn’t a
contradiction. what are they teaching in schools these days??
“Our challenge to all is to study the scriptures, ponder them extensively, come up w/ what you feel is correct, & then take it before the Lord.”
great, but not Christian. If what you end up with is opposed
to the Bible, you haven’t discovered truth... even if it
burns you down there.
“Otherwise we could be fooled either by the adversary or our own “wisdom”.”
or both!
“Is your opinion any better than other “Christians” who have studied as you but have come up w/ different opinions? So, who’s right then?”
to demonstrate the foolishness of that line of reasoning,
let’s change it...
Is your burning in the bosom any better than other “Christians” who have prayed as you but have come up w/ different opinions? So, who’s right then?
Here is where subjective “truth” fails you.
good luck with that! Have a good weekend too Reno!
ampu
I was agnostic, athiest, new Age, wicca, astrology - whatever seeker for over 20 years after I left my belief in Mormonism.
That the one thing that makes me angry. I raised my five children without God. None of them are saved even though my oldest children were baptized, confirmend and priesthood ordained in the LDS Church..
Now, it is my life’s mission - to rectify the wrong I’ve done in leading them away from God, and introduce them to Jesus Christ.
“Now, it is my life’s mission - to rectify the wrong I’ve done in leading them away from God, and introduce them to Jesus Christ.”
That’s a heavy burden colorcountry, but I believe you are strong enough to do the right thing.
But take some heart, the real wrong done was not yours, but that of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et. al. who were quite the False Prophets. You certainly weren’t the only one misled, at least now you have the chance to change (not rectify) the past.
Well, let’s talk about orthodox Christianity for a second. Orthodox Christianity centuries ago stated that Protestants were apostate, heretical, & false. The Pope basically stated likewise here recently. Where does that leave you AMPU? As well, orthodox Christianity of more recent past has had great difficulty reconciling differences in baptism, sacrament, grace vs. works, etc....
One would think that if it were so clear cut in the Bible, there would be no differences. There’s absolutely no general consensus in “Orthodox Christianity” on those & many other issues. Clearly, orthodox Christianity doesn’t have a real good track record on discerning all truth.
So, who’s right AMPU, you & those that think likewise, or the Catholics, or maybe one of the other thousands of “Christian” churches that differ from your opinions? See where your haughtiness gets a little weak?
As far as your assertion that praying to the Lord for answers is something unique to the BOM, I thought you were a Bible scholar? And you make that statement?
Is my burning in the bosom neccessarily better than others? NO! I do respect those that have sincerely prayed the most. I don’t ask or expect readers to take my word for it or that of my church. If they take the challenge & come up w/ a different answer, so be it. I believe the Lord will answer those prayers as He said He would in the Bible. My quest isn’t to impose my beliefs on others but rather to share the message. Let those that read do w/ that as they will.
In conclusion, faith & truth have failed me not. But that is my experience & one that is very personal to me. I feel no ill will towards those that have received otherwise. Have a great weekend AMPU.
Oh, so you’re saying the falling away could be in the future and hasn’t actually happened yet.
So tell me once again why you think the gospel (good news) of Christ was removed from the earth for 1800 years, after He promised us it wouldn’t be removed until the end times when the son of perdition is revealed?
The problem I have with discussing mormonism with mormons is that they deny everything that their apostles and prophets have been teaching for the last century and a half.
Well, an adulterous peepstone false prophet is hardly a good alternative to what you've tried to denigrate as Orthodox Christianity. Mormonism is not Christianity because Joe Smith was not directed by God to fabricate the B of M, or the book of Abraham, or the rewrite of the King James Bible. But you're doing demon's yoeman's work there, son. Smith was a fraud, his religion is a fraudulent copy of waht he as a clueless conman tried to copy in service to the lusts of his flesh under the direction of an evil intelligence.
Now, do you ever actually answer a post? It would seem that all you do often is come in, call names, & then leave w/o answering the question at hand. So, I'll ask you the same question, & my question has nothing to do w/ Joseph Smith or our church, so try & stay on topic.
Who's right about all doctrine MHG, you & those that think likewise, the Catholics, or one of the other thousands of "Christian" churches that differ from your opinions? It's a simple question & a simple answer that has nothing to do w/ our church will suffice.
If you resort to just bashing the church w/o answering once again, I'll conclude you don't have an answer, & that's o.k. b/c I don't expect you to. I've never been able to have a reasoned discussion w/ you w/o you taking a quick trip to the sandbox,& as you know, I will not follow. But I'm willing to give it another try.
Yep we Elsie and I are one. You found us out....
1Cr 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
“Is my burning in the bosom neccessarily better than others? NO! I do respect those that have sincerely prayed the most. I don’t ask or expect readers to take my word for it or that of my church. If they take the challenge & come up w/ a different answer, so be it. I believe the Lord will answer those prayers as He said He would in the Bible.”
Reno, many of us have prayed AND compared mormonism to the
Bible and gotten a very clear answer that it is a false religion.
And that is the problem with the approach mormonism
advocates. Well, just one problem.
As to the rest of your post...
“One would think that if it were so clear cut in the Bible, there would be no differences.”
When Christ was on earth, he healed one man by spitting in
the dirt and wiping it on his eyes. Another was healed by
hitting him.
That started the Hittites and Spittites. :-)
It’s been the same throughout history. Where there are
people, there are problems. You could easily get rid of
all problems by eliminating all people. God didn’t choose
to do that.
I do not worry about any other church or group that doesn’t
accept the Bible as authoritative in matters of faith
or practice of Christianity. There is one Church. Purchased
with Christ’s blood. Married to Him as Bride. That’s the one
I belong to by His grace. It is the only one. The Universal
Church.
“Clearly, orthodox Christianity doesn’t have a real good track record on discerning all truth.”
The churches on earth have had failures throughout history.
Where there are humans, there is failure. Don’t look for that
to change. God is at work anyway. Even the gates of Hell will
never prevail against His Church.
Happy weekend!
ampu
Your religion's founders did not comprehend the Gospel of Grace in Christ. I do not marvel that your religious argument is founded in the epistle of James ... he was a devout Jew, a dogmatic follower of the Law. He did not believe in Jesus until after he met Him in resurrection. For 19 years James was head of the Church at Jerusalem and apparently ran that Church as a minor sect of Judaism, with Jesus as Messiah but the followers as subject to the Torah, the Law of Moses. Your cult follows the same pathway, negating the Gospel of Grace to emphasize 'all that you can do' and THEN your idea is Jesus will kick in what you haven't amassed to earn exaltation/salvation. The message of Mormonism is a gospel of works, of 'all that you can do' so you have something to be proud of when you stand before God for Judgment.
You would do well to read the introduction of Paul's letter to the Galatian Churches ... gentile Churches filled with people from Gall, not Jewish Churches steeped in the Torah. Notice how Paul opens his letter to the Galatians, in contrast to the way James opens his epistle to ONLY the Jews!
You and your apologetics for the cult of Smithism will read the above and see nothing of a message, no substance. And that is revealing because it highlights what your cultish minds cannot allow to penetrate else you might awaken and be converted to the Gospel of Grace in Christ. Several months ago, when first I began 'debating' salvation with your Mormonism Apologist ilk at FR, I had a deep desire to open Mormon eyes to the Grace of God in Christ. With the intervening weeks of demonically inspired garbage from one blind Mormon sycophant after another, I am all out of patience with you servants of the son of perdition. Only God's Spirit can open the eyes of the willfully blind who are so enraptured with their own meritorious works. Therefore I have ceased to strive with you servants of the most low, I just enter posts that expose the lies and mischaracterizations and heresies at the heart of your founder, his henchmen, and your 'religious' texts.
You want to stand up strawman after strawman --like 'Who's right about all doctrine'-- yet you have not the vision of how filthy you are in God's sight without Christ. You reject Salvation immediately upon confession of Christ and belief in your heart that God raised Him from the dead ... you mouth the phrases and reject the immediate deliverance!You cannot even grasp the first principle of the Gospel of Grace in Christ and want nothing but to inject 'all that you can do' to create a debit system between you and God.
You are headed for Hell in a velvet self-works handbasket if you keep that up. You are spitting on the Blood of Christ when you seek to inject ANY works by you to be counted in any way toward your salvation/exaltation. Stop twisting the Truth, stop listening to the voice of 'yes, BUT'. You lose when you listen to that lie, just as Eve lost when she listened to that lie. Stop serving the devil's counter message to the Grace of God in Christ.
What makes your mind become so twisted that you ask a question about denominations and sects, without asking the most important question? You want to draw me into debating whether the Catholic Church is more right than the Lutherans, or the Baptist more right than the Presbyterians. Satan wants that very thing to pull attention away from the Grace of God in Christ, regardless of from whence cometh the Truth. But the lies at the heart of Mormonism don't point toward the Grace of God in Christ, they point to the works of 'good Mormons', the faithfulness of good followers of the false prophet, Joseph Smith.
Paul said to work out your own salvation in fear and teembling ... and a study of the Gospel of Grace will teach you that is not Paul saying save yourself through all that you can do, it is 'know that it is God in you to do that which is according His good pleasure.' In sharp contrast the gospel according to Joe Smith, et al is 'do all that you can do so Jesus will then add what only He can do for you, to pay you for showing your sincere desire to be good for godhood sake.'
Answer your question in light of the heresies at the heart of Mormonism rather than seeking to point out the work of Satan in perverting the Gospel as held by the Catholic Chruch despite the heresies of a few Popes in the past, and despite the slide of a few who rebelled against the gopel perverted by the heretics within the Catholic Church of an earlier age. When are you going to realize that Jesus said the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against His Grace, so Salvation did not take a holiday for 1800 years until God found a fourteen year old conman in the making to restore the Gospel of 'all that you can do'?
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That’s where everyone seeking to find out “the truth” has to begin. Not with asking God for a sign. No sign will be given other than the resurrection and if they won’t believe that, they won’t believe anything. Then one should study the Old Testament and the New Testament, not necessarily in that order. A thorough study will take years, then with hopefully, a mature spirituality they can begin to discern spiritual matters. To take any other path, trusting in one’s own intelligence, feelings, revelations, visions, whatever, is asking for trouble.
Listen tot he heresies buried near the surface of the following quotes as offered on another thread:
“This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth...” - Mormonism Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 164-165
“Our message is so imperative, when you stop to think about the salvation, the eternal salvation of the world, rests upon the shoulders of this Church. When all is said and done, if the world is going to be saved, we have to do it. There is no escaping from that. No other people in the history of the world have received the kind of mandate that we have received. We are responsible for all who have lived upon the earth, and that involves our missionary work. And we are going to be responsible for all who will yet live upon the earth.” - Mormonism Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Church News, July 3, 1999, p. 3
“No man holds divine authority equal to or above the president of the Church. In his position he is pre-eminent!" ... “Let us understand fully the clear identity of the president of the Church. He is the mouthpiece of God on earth for us today.” - “The Certain Sounds,” Church News, October 9, 1983, p. 24
Mormonism is founded in the deeply heretical notion that God's Grace went missing from the earth among men with the death of the last Apostle until the 'coming of Joseph Smith', the peepstone treasure diviner fraud, adulterous false prophet, who rewrote the King James Bible to create fabricated prophecies of himself!
From a doctrine standpoint, was Christ’s church ruled by one set of doctrines (set up by Him, I might add) or many variations during His time here & after w/ the apostles?
When Paul went to set the saints in Ephesus straight, did he teach them that as long as they believed in Christ all was well regardless of how bad they butchered the doctrines? Or did he teach them ONE set of doctrines to be followed? The Lord set up one church w/ ONE set of doctrines, not many. There were no failures in doctrine while the apostles were here from a church standpoint. But you are correct, man changed that once the apostles were no more.
Did He ever indicate that variations by man were o.k.? My studies of the Bible say absolutely not. Churches have had failures b/c they were run by man & their philosophies, not the Lord & the way He set up the church while here. That’s where your argument falls flat.
You seem to accept the teachings of man w/o direct input from the Lord. All these interpretations of the Bible & doctrine. Would the Lord really be the author of all that confusion? Would He really allow man to butcher his gospel like that & not say anything? Whenever His church went stray in biblical times, He sent His prophets to set them straight. Why would He go silent now? There’s more confusion now than in any other time in history.
You think we’re here to fend for ourselves. I respectfully disagree. That notwithstanding, I won’t stoop to denigrate your church. Not very Christ like in my humble opinion.
I didn’t figure you would answer. Have fun!
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