The Real Presence of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist (with full Scriptural references)

Columbia ^

[FourtySeven]

This should be an interesting thread.

[Titanites]

No, he said, "Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Depending on the translation used, it either says "this do" or "do this".

Baptism and The Lord's Supper are symbols of the death, burial, and resurrection; and of the breaking of His body and the spilling of His blood. Both symbolic.

They are not merely symbolic, as Scripture clearly demonstrates.

Acts 22:16 Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

1 Cor 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks [this] cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

[WileyPink]

You won't find the phrase "faith alone" in the NT. In fact, you contradict Scripture.

If it's not faith alone, what is it faith "with"? And, where is that in Scripture?

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And nowhere do I contradict Scripture.

[WileyPink]

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us..."

KJV: 1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

an-teet'-oo-pon Neuter of a compound of G473 and G5179; corresponding (“antitype”), that is, a representative, counterpart: - (like) figure (whereunto).

[armydoc]

No to both questions.

Why on earth not?? "if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever", "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life", and "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" are not ambiguous phrases. They are just as straightforward as "This is My Body". The author of the article certainly argues for a literal interpretation of these passages:

Notice with what solemnity (``Truly, truly...'') and how many times he reaffirms this teaching (vv. 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, and 58). Each of these verses is a categorical affirmation of the crowd's understanding of his words. There is no indication that Jesus is speaking figuratively here; we must humbly accept the words of our Lord, even though if it require a great leap of faith.

Sounds like this Catholic is telling us to take Jesus at His Word. No Eucharist, No Salvation. With Eucharist, guaranteed salvation.

[NYer]

Romans11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

We can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

"Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: 'Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.' [1 Tim 1:18-19 .] To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; [Cf. Mk 9:24 ; Lk 17:5 ; Lk 22:32.] it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church. [Gal 5:6 ; Rom 15:13 ; cf. Jam 2:14-26.]"
CCC 162

[Pyro7480]

With Eucharist, guaranteed salvation.

No, that's an oversimplification.

[Titanites]

Scripture makes no statement about faith being alone, except in one place, where it explicitly says that faith alone does not save.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

There is no salvation without faith and love. A loveless faith is worthless.

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" Gal 5:6

Though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2

[armydoc]

No, that's an oversimplification.

if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever

Eat the bread, live forever. As "simple" as it gets. I couldn't "oversimplify" it if I tried. Isn't that the point the author of this article was trying to make- take the words of Jesus in John 6 literally? If you are going to hedge on these, then then "This is My Body" is up for grabs as well.

[Pyro7480]

No, I mean, one can eat of His Body unworthily, which would obviously bring damnation upon a person who does so.

[Titanites]

baptism doth also now save us

Yes, baptism is not merely symbolic.

"when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:20-21.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:2-4

"you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:11-13

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" Titus 3:5-6

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)" Heb 10:22-23

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ez 36:24-28

[WileyPink]

Try the "Stand Alone" test.

Can baptism alone save you? NO!

Can Jesus alone save you? YES!

I'm done...Matthew 10:14

In Christ

[Titanites]

Try the "Stand Alone" test.

You forgot one. Does "faith alone" save you?

Not according to Scripture.

[armydoc]

No, I mean, one can eat of His Body unworthily, which would obviously bring damnation upon a person who does so.

So, the physical act of eating is not what is really important, correct?

[beachdweller]

In all honesty I don’t mean this in a snide way, but I do think it would be more fruitful if you researched the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist before you try to “debate” it. That would save much time, and if you still don’t agree, at least you wouldn’t have to ask “catch-up” questions about the the one of the oldest Christian traditions on the planet. After all, only baptism is older for us Christians (and that’s only because it predates Christianity as we understand it).

[armydoc]

In all honesty I don’t mean this in a snide way, but I do think it would be more fruitful if you researched the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist before you try to “debate” it. That would save much time, and if you still don’t agree, at least you wouldn’t have to ask “catch-up” questions about the the one of the oldest Christian traditions on the planet.

Born, baptized, raised Catholic, CCD, confirmed, the whole ball of wax. Discovered scripture at age 24; could not remain a Catholic. I know Catholic teachings well. My line of questioning was meant to expose the glaring contradictions between Catholic teaching and scripture on this subject. NYer and Pyro undoubtably realize this is my goal; we have debated numerous times. As an aside, the antiquity of your Tradition (or anyone else's for that matter) does not impress me. Errors are not fine wines; they do not become better with age.

[Pyro7480]

My line of questioning was meant to expose the glaring contradictions between Catholic teaching and scripture on this subject.

There are no such contradictions. The contradictions are between "Reformed" Christianity and Scripture on the subject of the Eucharist.

[stripes1776]

In all honesty I don’t mean this in a snide way, but I do think it would be more fruitful if you researched the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist before you try to “debate” it. That would save much time, and if you still don’t agree, at least you wouldn’t have to ask “catch-up” questions about the the one of the oldest Christian traditions on the planet. After all, only baptism is older for us Christians (and that’s only because it predates Christianity as we understand it).

What better way to do research into the Catholic position than to engage in conversation with a Catholic?

[armydoc]

There are no such contradictions. The contradictions are between "Reformed" Christianity and Scripture on the subject of the Eucharist.

I have pointed out the contradictions, to wit: John 6 clearly states that the act of "eating His body and drinking His blood" is both necessary and sufficient for salvation. The Catholic Church does not teach that. Ergo, contradiction.

[Pyro7480]

I have pointed out the contradictions, to wit: John 6 clearly states that the act of "eating His body and drinking His blood" is both necessary and sufficient for salvation. The Catholic Church does not teach that. Ergo, contradiction.

As of all the sacred mysteries bequeathed to us by our Lord and Saviour as most infallible instruments of divine grace, there is none comparable to the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist; so, for no crime is there a heavier punishment to be feared from God than for the unholy or irreligious use by the faithful of that which is full of holiness, or rather which contains the very author and source of holiness. This the Apostle wisely saw, and has openly admonished us of it. For when he had declared the enormity of their guilt who discerned not the body of the Lord, he immediately subjoined: Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep....

Finally, to comprise all the advantages and blessings of this Sacrament in one word, it must be taught that the Holy Eucharist is most efficacious towards the attainment of eternal glory. For it is written: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day. That is to say, by the grace of this Sacrament men enjoy the greatest peace and tranquillity of conscience during the present life; and, when the hour of departing from this world shall have arrived, like Elias, who in the strength of the bread baked on the hearth, walked to Horeb, the mount of God, they, too, invigorated by the strengthening influence of this (heavenly food), will ascend to unfading glory and bliss....

-Catechism of the Council of Trent