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To: Forest Keeper
Paul says we are NOT saved by works, but that we were created to do good works

"You have been saved" in Eph 2:8 is incorrect. Your own King James version says "are ye saved" and Young's literal make the progressive case very clear: "ye are having been saved". Secondly, St. Paul is not saying there that we are not saved by works in general, -- he qualifies these works twice, as works "form yourself" and intended to "boast". This is consistent with the Catholic teaching, with James 2, and St. Paul himself in Romans 2, and right here in Ephesians where he tells us that we are created to do good works. He also concludes his thought thus:

13 Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 14 For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, 17 That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, 18 You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: 19 To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us; 21 To him be glory in the church, and in Christ Jesus unto all generations, world without end. Amen.

(Eph 3)

Works and faith are not separated at all here: they are a single way of life that as a whole -- both faith and works -- has been in us as a result of Divine grace. Works strengthen faith and faith strengthens works, just like St. James teaches most conclusively.

65 posted on 11/13/2007 10:53:20 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke17.php)
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To: annalex
"You have been saved" in Eph 2:8 is incorrect. Your own King James version says "are ye saved" and Young's literal make the progressive case very clear: "ye are having been saved".

Strong's calls it the present indicative tense. That can be taken either as a past action or as an on going process, depending on the context. The full context of Paul's writings was that he believed himself to be already saved. For example:

1 Tim 1:15-16 : 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. KJV

However, you can simply ascribe every assertion of certainty to only being true AT THAT MOMENT. From there we would just have differing views of common sense. For example, John 3:16. Shall everyone who truly believes in Him have everlasting life? You would have to say "No".

Secondly, St. Paul is not saying there that we are not saved by works in general, -- he qualifies these works twice, as works "form yourself" and intended to "boast". This is consistent with the Catholic teaching, with James 2, and St. Paul himself in Romans 2, and right here in Ephesians where he tells us that we are created to do good works.

What? Here is the passage:

Eph 2:8-9 : 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV

The "not of yourselves" clearly refers to where the grace and faith came from. It has zero to do with the works. "That" which is not of yourselves IS the gift of God. THEREFORE, works have nothing to do with it, SO THAT no one can boast. If we COULD be saved by works, to any extent, then we could boast. God doesn't want that. He wants us to know that our salvation is solely His gift. At least, that is what Paul says.

Works and faith are not separated at all here: they are a single way of life that as a whole -- both faith and works -- has been in us as a result of Divine grace. Works strengthen faith and faith strengthens works, just like St. James teaches most conclusively.

He is talking about both the time of perseverance and the act of salvation. What's the big deal? During perseverance, of course faith and works go hand in hand. Nobody disputes that. He does the same thing in Eph. 2:8-10. As I said, in the Eph. 2 passage, Paul more concretely separates the two. "Not by works" means just what it says, we are not saved by works. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is THE gift of God.

70 posted on 11/13/2007 1:05:08 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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