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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***The answers to these questions constitute the only significant difference between the amillennial and the postmillennial positions. In reality, amillennialism is only a type of pessimistic postmillennialism. The amillennialist does not believe that the world as a whole will be discipled. They believe a few from every tribe and nation will be saved, but do not believe that the power of the gospel will result in a “golden age” in history...”***

But, this is precisely the Edenesque utopia to which I referred earlier. There is simply some variation into exactly what form this “golden age” will take among postmillennialists. You cited Acts 19 to demonstrate that “mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.” I have no problem with that verse. I was simply pointing out that this prevailing was done by the spread of the gospel on the ground that was wet with the blood of the saints. How, precisely, does a post-mill reconcile such facts with a “golden age,” especially considering that MOST Postmills believe that this golden age will result in bringing all the nations under God’s law?


816 posted on 11/12/2007 12:21:50 PM PST by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Lord_Calvinus; topcat54; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; suzyjaruki; ...
I was simply pointing out that this prevailing was done by the spread of the gospel on the ground that was wet with the blood of the saints.

True. And I ask you today, is it your blood or mine? No, the sacrifices produce tangible results.

No postmil believes in Utopia. But we do believe the world is being Christianized as we speak, according to God's will.

I never see premils or amils discussing the increased number of Christians. Over 1/6 of the planet is Christian. That is progress. Who can deny that?

Christ established the kingdom of God on earth at His resurrection and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. It will triumph.

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." -- Matthew 12:28-29

From the link I sent you (which is from an excellent short Calvinistic essay found here and well worth reading -- FIVE POINTS

"I believe Jesus had a very optimistic view of the success of the Kingdom He established. He bound Satan. The Evil One can no longer deceive the nations as he did before Jesus came, for "the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." The gospel of Jesus Christ is a powerful double-edged sword. As He gave the Great Commission, Jesus said that all authority in heaven and earth had been given to Him and He promised to be with His people always (Mt.28:18-20).

The victory of Christ's kingdom can be clearly seen in His three parables of the kingdom found in Matt. 13. The parable of the wheat and the tares is instructive: "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field." Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like a wheat field. Even though there are also tares in the field at harvest time, it must be remembered that it is a wheat field, not a tare field. Those who hold to various brands of "pessimillennialism" seem to teach that the Kingdom is a tare field with a few wheat stalks scattered here and there.

Matt. 13:30-31 records the parable of the mustard seed: "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed..." Jesus goes on to make His point that although the mustard seed is tiny, it grows into a very large bush. The Church of Jesus Christ started out small — 11 frightened men. Now there are millions of Christians all over the world. The Kingdom will grow larger still, as God's people are faithful to water and fertilize it and as God is pleased to pour out His Spirit upon His Church giving the increase.

Finally, in verse 33, Jesus said that the kingdom is like leaven. The kingdom is not like dough adulterated by evil leaven, it is like leaven. Leaven gradually permeates the whole lump of dough. What could Jesus be teaching except that the Kingdom will gradually penetrate the whole world?

Still not convinced? My favorite proof text for an optimistic view of history is a well known scripture verse. Although well known, few seem to understand it's significance. This verse is Matthew 16:18, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The context is Peter's confession of Jesus as Messiah. Jesus says that He will build His church on that truth. Jesus also says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against that Church as it stands upon that foundation.  

  Many Christians are so conditioned to a pessimistic view of history that they automatically reverse that passage to read "Hell will not prevail against the gates of the Church." That's not what it says, folks! The Church is not to withdraw within her walls and take pride in the fact that she can withstand the continuing siege of the forces of darkness until Jesus comes back and raptures her out of her predicament. No! Christ is commanding His church to get out and take the offensive and storm the gates of Hell and knock over the devil's strongholds.

Christians therefore have a duty to take their principles to the marketplace and make inroads in the world for the kingdom of Jesus Christ. He has promised that the gates of Hell are no match for His loyal troops.

I leave you with one more teaching from the lips of our Lord, proving that Jesus taught the success of His gospel in bringing the whole world under the discipline of God's law. In Matt. 22:44 Jesus quotes Ps. 110:1, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'" One clear fact of the New Testament is that Jesus went to the right hand of the Father at His ascension. (Heb. 1:3). Jesus will stay there until all His enemies are under His feet. There will be no rapture of a defeated Church. Jesus will come for His bride only after He has destroyed the enemies of God through His bride, the Church.

Sorry Hal, Satan may be alive for now, but he is not well on planet earth. He is being crushed by the power of God under the feet of the Church (Rom. 16:20).

FWIW, it seems to me that Baptists are more prone to the premil and amil perspective, whereas Presbyterians take a more postmil position, at least historically. It might just come down to the Baptist loathing for the institutional church (seen as a remnant of Romanism which then would come under the heading of wrongly "throwing out the baptized baby with the bath water") whereas Presbyterians believe in church accountability and a stronger sense of church organization. I don't know.

I do know that most of the Scriptural proofs for postmillennialism seem to rest on Christ's own words and parables, which is as solid a basis for understanding as we can get.

Along with most Reformers, Calvin would be considered a postmil; he believed the Reformation was God's edict to right the course of history and further set the captives free.

And on and on and on... "until He puts all enemies under His feet."

"It is a wheat field, not a tare field."

830 posted on 11/12/2007 1:32:51 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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