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To: xzins

“You just wrote, ‘...all of the Christians who were guided by the Holy Spirit were all so completely wrong.’”

So, then, I take it you agree with me that all those Christians for 1800 years must have been right. Good for you to admit that.

So then you must now admit that dispensationalism is wrong because nobody believed it before Darby came up with the idea in the 19th Century.

You see, you cannot have it both ways. They cannot both be right.


102 posted on 11/04/2007 4:20:17 AM PST by tabsternager
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To: tabsternager; xzins; Quix; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; topcat54
Er, if I may…

So then you must now admit that dispensationalism is wrong because nobody believed it before Darby came up with the idea in the 19th Century.

Three points:

1. That claim has been challenged in these articles on the early church fathers and the foundations of dispensationalism:

First
Second
Third

2. In this instance, the absence of evidence would not be evidence of absence because the Church went through a phase of “book burning” – not just condemning but actually destroying documents which contained beliefs not accepted by Rome.

Enoch is an example. It was known to the disciples, quoted in Scripture, beloved for 300 years and then not just rejected but discarded and remained lost until approximately 1775 when surviving manuscripts were discovered in Ethiopia. The true antiquity was confirmed by fragments of copies found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which carbon date to 200 B.C.

The works of Tertullian are another example. From the Papacy of Damasus (circa 366:)

The “Decretum Gelasianum de Libris Recipiendis et non Recipiendis”

V. The remaining writings which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:...

the works of Tertullian...

These and those similar ones, which Simon Magus, Nicolaus, Cerinthus, Marcion, Basilides, Ebion, Paul of Samosata, Photinus and Bonosus, who suffered from similar error, also Montanus with his obscene followers, Apollinaris, Valentinus the Manichaean, Faustus the African, Sabellius, Arius, Macedonius, Eunomius, Novatus, Sabbatius, Calistus, Donatus, Eustasius, Jovianus, Pelagius, Julian of Eclanum, Caelestius, Maximian, Priscillian from Spain, Nestorius of Constantinople, Maximus the Cynic, Lampetius, Dioscorus, Eutyches, Peter and the other Peter, of whom one disgraced Alexandria and the other Antioch, Acacius of Constantinople with his associates, and what also all disciples of heresy and of the heretics and schismatics, whose names we have scarcely preserved, have taught or compiled, we acknowledge is to be not merely rejected but eliminated from the whole Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and with their authors and the followers of its authors to be damned in the inextricable shackles of anathema forever.

3. The fourth century Epistle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the Gospel of Barnabas, a late sixteenth century pro-Islam fraud) – was one of those early manuscripts rejected by the Catholic Church, but unlike the above, preserved. In chapter 15, verses 3-5 it speaks of 7,000 years appointed to Adamic man as follows:

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

This literal interpretation of one day equaling a thousand year was the Jewish interpretation of Psalms 90:4 (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) and it was the early Christian understanding as well:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4 (a Psalm the Jews attribute to Moses)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8

The understanding of this meaning of “day” goes back to Genesis as follows:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Gen 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

The parallel is between Creation Week and the 7000 years appointed to Adamic man the last 1,000 being the millennial reign of Christ on earth as the Sabbath.

That early Judeo/Christian understanding was discarded by the Catholic Church and was never picked up (AFAIK) by the Reformation. But surely the belief was “dispensational” to coin the modern term.

BTW, the Jewish year is 5768 from Adam’s first moment on earth – so under that calendar, Christ is not due for approximately two centuries and change. Using the Christian calendar, 6000 years more or less have already elapsed. The difference is a dispute over the amount of time the Jews were exiled in Babylon.

Personally, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board – so I really do not have a dog in this fight.

However, I strongly aver one should not argue against dispensationalism on the basis of “absence of evidence as evidence of absence” though I find that an excellent argument in the science debates because the geological record is not so easily erased by man.

The bottom line is this:

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. – Matt 25:13 (ending the parable of the ten virgins.)

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

104 posted on 11/04/2007 6:54:25 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: tabsternager

Dispensationalism existed as an understanding of the different eras in religious history. Justin Martyr clearly believed in a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. He wrote in ca. 150 AD.

Besides that you have already agreed that Eden was a separate period in religious history.

You wish to argue doctrine, and I wish to look at the facts of what is an is not apparent in the Bible.

BTW, what would you call that period of time we know as Eden?


105 posted on 11/04/2007 10:31:57 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain. True support of the troops means praying for US to WIN the war!)
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